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Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first?
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Preface the discussion with historical fact that swimming was not always the first event in a triathlon. From the perception of safety, it has been the first event. However, swimming in mass has led to several deaths and some general panic during the swim and I don't think we've ever really thought about the change in our behavior if swimming was the last event. People might quit before or during the swim (some do now though it's the first event) when they feel it is too much for them just like they quit during the bike or run.

If swimming were last, would we really care about the best swimmer if that swimmer was twenty to forty minutes off of the podium?

I think the reality is that the announcers and the audience would only be following the top three to five triathletes and the emphasis on swimming would not be what it is today. The focus on having an excellent swim stroke and drafting while swimming would probably be replaced with the skill to swim "good enough" to finish well when tired.

And swimmers, please don't give me your typical death, destruction and you are undermining the swim and don't understand swimming hype. Many triathletes do cool down swims to feel better after their bricks and not worse.

Agree, disagree or do you see another angle on how the order of events might change your behavior.

PS It does seem clever that the current order highlights the best swimmers, best cyclists and best runners. Changing the order might very well hide who the best athletes are in the individual events.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT wrote:

I think the reality is that the announcers and the audience would only be following the top three to five triathletes and the emphasis on swimming would not be what it is today. The focus on having an excellent swim stroke and drafting while swimming would probably be replaced with the skill to swim "good enough" to finish well when tired.



Agree, disagree or do you see another angle on how the order of events might change your behavior.

I'm not sure I fully understand the question. Swimming first, probably benefits the weaker swimmers. A strong swimmer will still move pretty well in the water even if it came after a 180km ride and 42km run. Good technique would probably be more critical when someone is fatigued.
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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A very long irrelevant question from an 'indoor triathlete'. I guess watch the super league triathlons...
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Having the swim later would only make it more important. The worse swimmers wouldn't be able to draft as much plus having good technique is more important and the chance of cramping and having to put on a wetsuit after running or biking is near impossible.

Like Shambolic said watch Super League, Island House or Aquathlon.

Watch how many people are in front of Varga when he comes in to T1 and how many are infront of him in T2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCX8-R7t9dM
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Run-Bike-Swim:

Would be the optimal order for a triathlete with a strong swim.

Run-Bike(Draft legal)- Swim:

The ex-College swimmer with the decent run and bike would be invisible.
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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Here is a thought experiment for you, what distances or order would have given the top 3 males in the recent 70.3 WC any if at all an advantage? Like I have always said, take a top triathlete today and it won't matter one iota what order or distance(within reason), they will still be the top 3. It could be 35 mile bike, 10 mile run, and 300 yard swim, or 3000 yard swim, or a 10k swim, doesnt make any difference to the best of the best.

Now the fill in places will change of course, those are the guys that have a weakness, and if it gets magnified in any way, they are going to drop back.
Last edited by: monty: Sep 11, 18 18:05
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I did a

SWIM
BIKE
RUN
SWIM
BIKE
RUN

Race

It was awesome. Didn’t know what to expect

I will say the second swim felt great after running
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't know there was an emphasis on swimming. It occupies about 15 percent of an ironman in terms of time on course. If anything swimming is the poor cousin in triathlon. The swim would have to be about 10K long in an ironman to be near the importance of the run.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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You never run out of stupid crap to post, do you? It's a shame the ignore function only works for replies and not for posts.
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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I’m a terrible runner, ok cyclist and pretty good swimmer. Put me in a race where I could run on fresh legs, rather than tired ones, and I’d place way better than I do now.

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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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RBR wrote:
I did a

SWIM
BIKE
RUN
SWIM
BIKE
RUN

Race

It was awesome. Didn’t know what to expect

I will say the second swim felt great after running


That sounds like fun. What race was that? I'd like to see something along the line of olympic distance tri done like a pyramid, with a little more proportional weighting to the swim.

S 1.5k
R 5k
B 40k
R 5k
S 1.5k

That would be one heck of an entertaining race, with out being so long that the water safety staff would need to be around all day. (edited to fix the run distances...)
Last edited by: Route66: Sep 11, 18 18:36
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [Route66] [ In reply to ]
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It was many years ago in Buffalo

I think they marketed it as a race which was regularly done in Europe so spectators could see more of the racers
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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I think it would be really interesting to do a race backwards (Run-Bike-Swim). Swimming is definitely my weak point, so every race involves passing a bunch of people on the bike and being stuck in no-mans land on the run where the top guys are just out of reach. It'd be fun to be in the lead group on the run, pull away on the bike and then do my darnedest to hold people off on the swim as they close in on me.

For the pros, imagine Sanders with a big lead out of T2 getting into the water as Jan and Gomez try and work together to chase him down.

I wouldn't want every race to be like this, but it would be a fun change once a year to keep things fresh. One of the local tri's was going to do this the day after the regular tri but unfortunately it never matriculated

Matt
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Pun_Times wrote:
I think it would be really interesting to do a race backwards (Run-Bike-Swim). Swimming is definitely my weak point, so every race involves passing a bunch of people on the bike and being stuck in no-mans land on the run where the top guys are just out of reach. It'd be fun to be in the lead group on the run, pull away on the bike and then do my darnedest to hold people off on the swim as they close in on me.
For the pros, imagine Sanders with a big lead out of T2 getting into the water as Jan and Gomez try and work together to chase him down.
I wouldn't want every race to be like this, but it would be a fun change once a year to keep things fresh. One of the local tri's was going to do this the day after the regular tri but unfortunately it never matriculated

For AGers, imagine 25% or more of the field DNFing. I suspect that no one who swims slower than 1:30 (2:09/100 yd) when fresh would be capable of finishing the swim, unless they expanded the swim time limit to 4 hr and provided lots of rafts to rest on, plus aid stations to rehydrate. Cramping brought on by being just a little dehydro would destroy many people's chances of finishing. As others have noted, having the swim first is advantageous to weaker swimmers. People would have to take the swim a lot more seriously if it were last. In fact, i'd guess entries would be considerably lower if the swim were last, as it would just be too intimidating.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I was thinking sprint and Olympic distance, not a full ironman.

Though the reference to the pros was for longer stuff

Matt
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Pun_Times wrote:
I was thinking sprint and Olympic distance, not a full ironman.
Though the reference to the pros was for longer stuff.

Ya, sprint and Oly would be more practicable. I've done a number of sprints with swim last, but have not heard of an Oly with swim last. Iron races could make the pros do the race in reverse order, just to make it harder for them. Even for the pros, I can see the headlines now: "Kona top four after run/bike DNF during swim, 5th place biker/runner ends up winning race." I will refrain from comment on how LS might do. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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RBR wrote:
I did a

SWIM
BIKE
RUN
SWIM
BIKE
RUN

Race

It was awesome. Didn’t know what to expect

I will say the second swim felt great after running

I'm doing that next week, but only 300m swim in OW, 15k bike and 3k run. Dreading the 2nd swim since water temps will be low but putting on a wet wetsuit again takes too much time.. Cold water and high heart rate from running seem like a recipe for disaster.
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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It was many years ago in Buffalo

---

Summer Sizzler Sprint F1 or Tri-Dunkirk Oly F1?






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [Route66] [ In reply to ]
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There is one at Carolina beach called the Carolina Double Sprint. Its:

S - 375m
R - 1.5 mile
B - 20km
R - 1.5 mile
S - 375m

The swim is ocean, so running into the breakers and paralleling the beach then swimming towards the beach in a box shape. The general full out nature of a sprint, coupled with running across the beach in the sand to get from transition to the swim start from the last run, I was tanked on the last swim.

Use this link to save $5 off your USAT membership renewal:
https://membership.usatriathlon.org/...A2-BAD7-6137B629D9B7
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Tri_Joeri wrote:
RBR wrote:
I did a

SWIM
BIKE
RUN
SWIM
BIKE
RUN

Race

It was awesome. Didn’t know what to expect

I will say the second swim felt great after running


I'm doing that next week, but only 300m swim in OW, 15k bike and 3k run. Dreading the 2nd swim since water temps will be low but putting on a wet wetsuit again takes too much time.. Cold water and high heart rate from running seem like a recipe for disaster.

Double Trouble Triathlon. I think it was ~300yd ocean swim/5mi bike/1.5mi boardwalk run/repeat, but not sure. I must say that I ran out of T1 without my bike helmet (had to go back and get it), and I went right from the run to the bike in T3 (had to go back and go for the second swim). Still, a fun race and one that required some thought and care to ensure fast five transitions.

Vice Versa Triathlon. 3mi run/12mi bike/.25mi ocean swim. The winner put on his wetsuit after the bike. The ocean water was cold, but it really felt good after the bike. I passed two guys in the water to move from 6th to 4th overall.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [AlyraD] [ In reply to ]
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AlyraD wrote:
There is one at Carolina beach called the Carolina Double Sprint. Its:

S - 375m
R - 1.5 mile
B - 20km
R - 1.5 mile
S - 375m

The swim is ocean, so running into the breakers and paralleling the beach then swimming towards the beach in a box shape. The general full out nature of a sprint, coupled with running across the beach in the sand to get from transition to the swim start from the last run, I was tanked on the last swim.

Survival of the Mills. RUN 1.25 MILES - BIKE 9 MILES - RUN 2.25 MILES - SWIM .4 MILES - RUN 1.75 MILES - BIKE 9 MILES - RUN 3.1 MILES

Brutal x-c/woods/swamp running, really cold swim (I put on my T1 wetsuit top).

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not going to be anti-swimming and cast aspersions upon it as it's an important piece of the fitness and race puzzle. That stated, it's about 10% of my race and I'm not going to spend a few extra hours per week going from my 1:05-1:09 IM swim to a 1:02-1:06 IM swim. It's just not worth the time and hassle, and I can guarantee I could shave off far more than 2-4 minutes spending that extra 2-3 hours cycling and running. There's simply not the bang for the buck that you get from cycling and running.

I'm not opposed to spending a winter block of almost nothing but swimming to gain that time but I've not done it yet.

Of course, I'd like to just be able to swim again. I haven't been able to swim since May and it looks like it will be next May before I can get in the pool again. Fucking bike crash and shoulder injuries.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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Next year, HFP here in Ohio is doing three long sprints in a row....

https://hfpracingnews.wordpress.com/...kes-triad-is-coming/

total mileage 70.3
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
I'm not going to be anti-swimming and cast aspersions upon it as it's an important piece of the fitness and race puzzle. That stated, it's about 10% of my race and I'm not going to spend a few extra hours per week going from my 1:05-1:09 IM swim to a 1:02-1:06 IM swim. It's just not worth the time and hassle, and I can guarantee I could shave off far more than 2-4 minutes spending that extra 2-3 hours cycling and running. There's simply not the bang for the buck that you get from cycling and running.

... end scene on Endurance Nation infomercial.
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Re: Is swimming overrated simply because it comes first? [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Wow very cool

The 2nd Swim is sort of weird because no pack lol

Where is the race?
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