Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Blakebecker] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 7:12

Post #126 of 293 (7002 views)

Blake,
Give your boy some credit! He did a race that he was allowed to do. He did not bend rules or have any evil motives going into this event. I talked to him the Friday before the race. From the short convo, he told me a few things: that it was going to be great to wake up in his own bed and race around his town. Secondly, he told me that he just got out of the water and had a great swim with a good pal. 2 things that have come to mind since the convo: 1- Why would anyone do an IM off the couch. 2- you are the great pal who he swam with the day before. Give your boy a bit of love back!!!!

As far as I can see, this whole ordeal is stupid. They let the man race....giving him a number and a chip. In 2015, he gets a called as the winner. For 2016, change the rules where pros can't race. Simple!

PT

ps When Lance, Levi and Co. raced Gila back in 2010, they were not separated out in the the results, as they technically should not have been race a non-world tour race; and I am glad they kept them in the race.

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 7:15

Post #127 of 293 (6996 views)

I guess that "deserving" AG'er should have raced faster. Thomas won. Now I do agree that Rudy got screwed in this situation. I wasn't aware that Rudy was an AG'er now as I raced against him a couple of times last year in pro fields so I just assumed he was still a pro.

I am 100% on TG's side. Pro's have had over 50% of their prize money races taken away in N. America and everyone still expects us to just race "pro only" races. I'm not traveling to Cali, Florida, Texas, Europe, etc. throughout the year to hopefully have the race of MY life and squeak into a $500 or $750 paycheck for finishing 10th. So we're just supposed to stop racing all together, or only race 2-3 times a year?

Are you also saying that Matt Stonie and Joey Chestnut should only be able to eat Nathan's hot dogs on the 4th of July?

@tonywhitetri

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [jjdaniels71] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 7:17

Post #128 of 293 (6992 views)

If you have been around the sport for a long time and are a good ambassador the triathlon world is pretty
small. It is easy to get last minute entries into a race, and I have been comped entries many times.
For a race director by bringing in athletes it helps to improve competition, it can show others that it
is a fast course, and can also be about getting the race more exposure.

Even if there is no prize purse offered I would still want to see pros racing as the winner is a good benchmark
to compare myself to. I would welcome anyone who wants to show up to a race, even if it is a world champ
at a local olympic distance. Right now at IM distance we don't truly have races due to wave starts, as it is
hard to know how one compares to the competition until the end of the day. Go back to a mass start and
let the best individuals have their glory.

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 7:49

Post #129 of 293 (6911 views)

ggeiger wrote:

Blakebecker wrote:

Base Nutrition paid for his entry.

+++

As the longest standing hometown Pro in Madison, WI I choose not to race because:

#1 - Ironman races are too hard on my body to just go out and do one.

#2 - It felt like I would be stealing the AG thunder. OF COURSE the Pro's are going to beat the Age Grouper's in an Ironman. Duh!

TG raced because he wanted to win. He did. Is it the same? Of course not.

I disagree with the decision to race and believe those reading this are likely split 50/50 on whether it was a good decision to do so. However, it is too bad he wasn't allowed to celebrate what he technically should have been allowed to do according to the rules and on paper.

Rudy was screwed the most in this case though. He was a legit age grouper. It was over-looked because when he registered last year, he actually held a Pro license. This year he did not have one and has raced AG all year. He was the top amateur at Boulder 70.3. He got zero publicity or recognition for his accomplishment yesterday.

+++

My personal opinion is that an AG race should NOT allow Pro's to participate at all. Thus the name "Age Group race."

BINGO! ^^

DOUBLE BINGO! ^^

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [paulthomas] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 7:56

Post #130 of 293 (6890 views)

PT, this is stupid and actually a bit comical.

I don't know if anyone could have registered for the race on Friday evening, BUT I give Thomas credit for having his best race to date on that course. So that is great. I definitely believe he should have been given the banner, recognition, all the things that go with being first across the line. Those are the rules and that's what should have been awarded to him.

Perhaps Mike Reilly was having a hard time on the day, he fell off his tower and was unconscious for 3minutes. Apparently he is fine now.

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Twhite_4] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 8:11

Post #131 of 293 (6864 views)

Twhite_4 wrote:

I guess that "deserving" AG'er should have raced faster. Thomas won. Now I do agree that Rudy got screwed in this situation. I wasn't aware that Rudy was an AG'er now as I raced against him a couple of times last year in pro fields so I just assumed he was still a pro.

I am 100% on TG's side. Pro's have had over 50% of their prize money races taken away in N. America and everyone still expects us to just race "pro only" races. I'm not traveling to Cali, Florida, Texas, Europe, etc. throughout the year to hopefully have the race of MY life and squeak into a $500 or $750 paycheck for finishing 10th. So we're just supposed to stop racing all together, or only race 2-3 times a year?

Are you also saying that Matt Stonie and Joey Chestnut should only be able to eat Nathan's hot dogs on the 4th of July?

The intent of my post was simply to raise Thomas' awareness of the other side of his argument. I posted shortly after returning to my hotel. I only heard about this after I had completed the race. The report I got came with some negative connotation toward Thomas and was made by some people who weren't racing Sunday but when they do they are at the pointy end of the field.

I logged onto ST half expecting to find a grumble thread about the whole situation (ie. why were pros racing). Instead I find TG's thread........ I found it a little tone deaf to the whole day and to some of the feelings about his choosing to race and thought I would try to point that out.

Let me say again, I think this is mostly an issue for WTC. But I don't know what was said between them and TG as part of this signing up process.

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 8:34

Post #132 of 293 (6789 views)

redtdi wrote:

I very (very) generally assume that when racing other AGers that I have similar access to time, money and other resources to make it a fair race. If pros show up then I assume that they have access to more time than I do, which when recovery and training are the critical elements of getting better make for a less even playing field.

So basically you want a handicap for how much time people have to train? Many pros work full time and train on the side, just as many ager's train full time and work on the side.

Should we also create a handicap for how much money you have? If you can afford a P5 and zipps, you need to race in a different category than a guy racing a road bike with clip ons?

How about a handicap for height, or weight, or talent, or maybe experience? If you swam or ran in high school or college, you need to race in different category than folks who started endurance sports later in life, because you had access to coaches, resources, etc?

Creating stupid sub categories belittles the sport. First one across the finish line wins the race. It's that simple.

___________________
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [snackchair] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 8:51

Post #133 of 293 (6736 views)

Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken

"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 8:52

Post #134 of 293 (6734 views)

Incredibly bad assumption. Read my post #124 directly above yours.

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 9:04

Post #135 of 293 (6699 views)

redtdi wrote:

Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken

What is your definition of pro competition? Those that are actively holding a USAT elite license? What about Rudy, just because he let his card expire doesn't mean he has let his talent and work ethic expire, he was a pro last year from my understanding. What about the AG'ers that raced that have qualified for their elite license but declined it? Are they not pro competition because of their choice to take a card or not?

Maybe triathlon or USAT should just drop the elite license and let the fastest times themselves sort out who is who.

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 9:10

Post #136 of 293 (6679 views)

redtdi wrote:

Pat0 wrote:

I very (very) generally assume that when racing other AGers that I have similar access to time, money and other resources to make it a fair race. .

That's pretty funny. I suppose it averages out somewhat. But of the top finishers in Kona, you'll find many are almost "professional amateurs" that train 25-30 hours per week, still sleep 7+ hours every night. They have some sponsorship and often have the best equipment.

I personally have a twisted sense of pride lining up with a scratched up 8 year old aero helmet, 5 year old, non integrated 2nd tier aero bike, older zip 404 up front, and I don't even own a disc.

So how would you rate the top amateur finisher at Kona showing up to every long course race you enter that year, in your age group. He's finished "in the money" in a 70.3 several times. Could easily be racing pro. Did he somehow "steal" a win from me? No way. I love it! I get to race one of the best in the world. I embrace the opportunity. He's going to blow my doors off in the run, but I don;t care. I'll race my heart out and enjoy every minute of good competition.

I race all comers. If they show up and beat me, good for them. They are the better athlete. I race whoever I can race. I don't look for a weaker field just to pad my ego. I grade my performances on a curve in any race. Meaning I'm really racing myself, and judging my performance based on the best effort I know I'm capable of given any limitation (rest, training load, conditions, etc.).

Honestly, I'm sometimes a little disappointed to find myself out front, but having only an "average" day. Its' when you put in your best race you know you had in you, and still got beat, now that's a great day. I love to see how many card carrying pros I can beat at any race, especially the bike. Without a pro field at a major race, my performance almost seems a little hollow. Nothing to compare it against.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 9:11

Post #137 of 293 (6677 views)

Hopefully IM will straighten out their policies so that everything becomes clear. I'm in favour of not having "current" pros start. Rudy would have been very welcome by me.

"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 9:14

Post #138 of 293 (6668 views)

I agree with the vanity statement, but this is a problem that WTC, the triathlon media (including this site), and sponsors have created.

If the people with the fastest times in the JV ironman parades without pro fields weren't being called ironman 'winners' and 'champs' it would be a different story. But the fact that the triathlon media and ironman calls them ironman champs necessitates that anyone should be able to show up and race for that title - as is the case with a local race that has no prize money.

If we prohibit pros from racing, we'll simply see less fast athletes taking their pro cards so they can 'win' an ironman (and accumulate the accolades, media attention, and sponsorship money and products associated with that victory). With kona and 70.3 qualification being virtually impossible at the pro level and considerably easier at the age group level, and prize money races dying out, there's already little incentive for athletes to take their pro card unless they're at the very, very top of the sport.

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 9:28

Post #139 of 293 (6626 views)

Supersquid wrote:

Quote:

Quote:
And many age groupers are basically pros - train full time and work on the side.

This.

Is this fair? Is it any more fair than TG winning an "AG" race? I think there should be Kona slots for those with real jobs. Maybe slots for those that work 20 hours, then 40, then 60? Is that fair?

By getting a pro card, Thomas chose to take himself out of the amateur ranks to compete as a pro so I don't think it's fair for him to drop down a category just to win an amateur race. It has nothing to do with training time.

There is no such thing as amateur race, the only time I am aware that it becomes an issue is when there is a pro who doesn't do the pro race and competes as amateur. This was not a pro race. Just for the record, you are aware that Pros do no pro-races all the time don't you? I do a handful a year every year. Nobody ever seems to complain when I show up at those.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [BigNes88] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 9:39

Post #140 of 293 (6583 views)

For the record, my list of reasons goes on and on and I have more than just written. BTW, I ran 18 miles on Monday. People doing an Ironman don't run 18 miles on the Monday before. I starting thinking about racing on Thursday. And yes, I head back to Tucson soon. I don't think anyone really understands how much work is involved in moving all stuff back and forth, finding and apartment, setting everything up, the actual travel time etc. It is nice to get in a race before I go thru all that. This year I didn't have a chance with DNFing at IMMT.

And I said my parents have never seen me win a race. Chances are the closer the race the less seriously I am taking it. Often times when I show up at a local race I have a massive amount of fatigue already built up and I rarely if ever put in any sort of "race effort". But frankly I also tell my parents specifically not to come because it isn't worth the travel. There is no travel required in them for this. I have never done a triathlon in Madison outside of Ironman Wisconsin. This is my home race. If Capital View showed some interested in having me race I would have maybe come out, but in past years they never have.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [jjdaniels71] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 9:47

Post #141 of 293 (6552 views)

jjdaniels71 wrote:

You got a comped entry from a race sponsor. In what race do they ever allow ANY person to sign up 2 days before the race? Your actions were bush league and this forum post confirms that. if you want to carry a pro/elite card, act like one both on and off the course.

Thank you for your thoughts. For the record they allow many people, even amateurs to sign up 2 days before the race. Please don't make me out to be unique because that is not correct and it seems that you might just be unaware of the inner workings of the organization. I went thru all the proper channels before hand, and it is NOT a comped entry. A comped entry implies the race is providing a free entry - this was not the case. I had to give up something to get something, it wasn't free for me.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 9:51

Post #142 of 293 (6530 views)

redtdi wrote:

Hopefully IM will straighten out their policies so that everything becomes clear. I'm in favour of not having "current" pros start. Rudy would have been very welcome by me.

Honest question. When Challenge cancelled a bunch of races - for instance Challenge Atlantic City, they still invited pros to come compete anyway. I realize that most pros are not going to put in a lot of travel to go race, but almost every pro I know races some local triathlon to them. Do you have the same view for those pros doing those local races? If not why the differing view here.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 9:56

Post #143 of 293 (6510 views)

redtdi wrote:

Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken

Ken, I can assure you that I didn't even know if I could finish this race. I went from 32 mins, to 45, to 54, to 90, to 150 to maybe my knee is going to hold up for the entire race. As I explained in my initial email to Heather requesting why I was entering, it gave me a chance to do a race situation and see how the knee was progressing. It does me know good to go spend $2,000 to travel to an IM to DNF again. Worse, I know that people always having differing views, however if I would have swam, bike, and ran 13.1 miles and then dropped out. I would be attacked for "not finishing, for DNFing when I was perfectly capable to finish". Sometimes you can't win.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Blakebecker] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 10:02

Post #144 of 293 (6487 views)

Blakebecker wrote:

PT, this is stupid and actually a bit comical.

I don't know if anyone could have registered for the race on Friday evening, BUT I give Thomas credit for having his best race to date on that course. So that is great. I definitely believe he should have been given the banner, recognition, all the things that go with being first across the line. Those are the rules and that's what should have been awarded to him.

Perhaps Mike Reilly was having a hard time on the day, he fell off his tower and was unconscious for 3minutes. Apparently he is fine now.

MIke Reilly fell off his tower and was unconscious. Where and when did this happen?

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 10:06

Post #145 of 293 (6472 views)

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

redtdi wrote:

Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken

Ken, I can assure you that I didn't even know if I could finish this race. I went from 32 mins, to 45, to 54, to 90, to 150 to maybe my knee is going to hold up for the entire race. As I explained in my initial email to Heather requesting why I was entering, it gave me a chance to do a race situation and see how the knee was progressing. It does me know good to go spend $2,000 to travel to an IM to DNF again. Worse, I know that people always having differing views, however if I would have swam, bike, and ran 13.1 miles and then dropped out. I would be attacked for "not finishing, for DNFing when I was perfectly capable to finish". Sometimes you can't win.

Pro Colin Laughery raced IM Boulder and dropped out before the end and didn't receive any ill will. Few people even knew he was racing and those that did applauded him for not poaching a win. So, there's that precedent.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 10:07

Post #146 of 293 (6466 views)

redtdi wrote:

Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken

But he didn't race Age Group. He raced overall. No Age Group races were affected. If you want to make an argument that a current Pro should not be allowed in a non-Pro race then take that up with WTC to change the rule. From what I have read it clearly states TG was fine to race for the overall title but will not be included in the Age Group standings.

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 10:09

Post #147 of 293 (6451 views)

Before your finish...heard about it second hand from two people.

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Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 10:20

Post #148 of 293 (6413 views)

The real questions.

Wisconsin State Journal said you are taking a break from triathlon- True or False?

Next year when this is a Women's Pro race, will you be competing?

You are leaving for Tucson? I thought you are staying here until Silverman and AZ?

Did you buy lottery tickets on Friday evening after seeing 777 on our swim?

+++

Let's just lighten up a little and move on.

WTC needs to clear up their language. They stated it's on Age Group Only race on their coverage page, yet they still allow active Pro's to compete, but don't acknowledge them on the day, but decide to the next day. All I can say is that we should expect that the rules will change and be clear next year!

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 10:24

Post #149 of 293 (6398 views)

To claim he would have won is a bit much. He came off the bike in second and he would have had to run with Clay Emge (also former pro last year) The sad part about this whole thing is that even gives precedent to Rudy's story here. WTC can figure it out in Boulder for Clay (former pro) but couldn't figure it out for Rudy.

TRS racing gave Thomas a forum to speak. Whether you like Thomas or not he is bringing up points that need to be addressed by the WTC. End of story.

Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Blakebecker] [ In reply to ]

Sep 15, 15 10:29

Post #150 of 293 (6376 views)

Blakebecker wrote:

The real questions.

Wisconsin State Journal said you are taking a break from triathlon- True or False?

Next year when this is a Women's Pro race, will you be competing?

You are leaving for Tucson? I thought you are staying here until Silverman and AZ?

Did you buy lottery tickets on Friday evening after seeing 777 on our swim?

+++

Let's just lighten up a little and move on.

WTC needs to clear up their language. They stated it's on Age Group Only race on their coverage page, yet they still allow active Pro's to compete, but don't acknowledge them on the day, but decide to the next day. All I can say is that we should expect that the rules will change and be clear next year!

When they say "Age Group Only" race they mean it doesn't have a prize purse. It is poor wording at best. Regardless,

No lotto tickets. In the moment when the journal asked that it was kind of a punch to the gut because the reporter was talking about how they were removing my result from the results so I was disenchanted in that instant as anyone would be. That didn't last long, I swam 1K last night and got about 20,000 steps in yesterday. I am not holding my breath right now on WTC. Last year at this time we already had the year planned out. As of now we really don't have the race schedule at all. Personally, part of the decision to do this race again, yet another reason is that in two years time when this race comes back, if it comes back, I will hopefully be competing again in Kona and skipping on the pro race if there is one. I am not sure when I am leaving for Tucson. Right now I am entertaining the possibility of doing IMCHATT and skipping Silverman.

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