This.

Is this fair? Is it any more fair than TG winning an "AG" race? I think there should be Kona slots for those with real jobs. Maybe slots for those that work 20 hours, then 40, then 60? Is that fair?

I think the solution for those that didn't win yesterday that thought they could is simple. You must go faster. I'm sure that sounds like a dick statement and it's not intended as such, but racing is racing. There's always someone faster. I hope I'm healthy enough and lucky enough to mix it up with the big boys down there next year.

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
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False.

And even if they did, arguing that pros have an unfair advantage due to training time makes no more sense than divvying up age group kona slots based on how much time a person has to train, how much they work, how many kids they have, their access to expensive equipment and resources, etc.

The more categories/distinctions/groupings we create the more it demeans and belittles the sport.

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By getting a pro card, Thomas chose to take himself out of the amateur ranks to compete as a pro so I don't think it's fair for him to drop down a category just to win an amateur race. It has nothing to do with training time.

Thomas, we internally had discussed this very topic a few months ago to make it a story. And it looks like we have more reason to do it now.

I've only been in this sport a few years and am really only obsessed with how I can get better and don't have a full grasp of all the politics involved here but if I boil this all down it sounds like a guy that is a professional athlete by the standards established within the sport used his status and clout as a pro to enter and win what is an amateur event and is upset or at least confused when he isn't technically the winner. I guess I'm confused as to why this is even a controversy.

Yes it certainly is a topic that needs more discussion in the future. It was a busy day and I hope to respond to more of the thread tomorrow, but I haven't had time to do so today. I did talk about some of the issues surrounding the confusion and ways to improve this process on an interview I did today that has been released.

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Congrats on your race - all the chatter about what its like to be a pro vs amateur are interesting, and WTC will likely find a way to try to have it both ways where they sell out races without offering prize money, but I hope they are not successful at that and that every big IM race will have lots of pros duking it out for money and racing fast.

Again - great win out there. Wisconsin is a tough course.

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Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at ZiZU Optics, (for the custom fit), and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT

As an example, NBA players play in summer leagues or in pickup games back at their colleges all the time...

Not me. Adds nothing to my race and if anything is just a big distraction. Just make every IM a race, plain and simple. Whoever is fastest is the winner. If they want to have a prize purse, amateurs should be eligible. Forget the whole amateur-pro distinction. Just have an elite wave where anybody who wants to race for prize money can do so. But as others have said many times before, not sure what is in it for IM to have a prize purse (or pros) at all.

Scott,

This is for you but is also for everybody else who asked. For those that are unaware there are many different avenues of registration, there is general registration, their is foundation slots, there are also sponsors slots. I am not going to get into the whole talk track as it clear based on here that a lot of that has been kept private for a reason and I don't want to risk getting my handed slapped unnecessary - as a pro I have previously received a written warning letter for conduct.

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I am assuming that comment is in pink? If having a lead biker for the whole marathon is not enough, I am sure I could produce my gps file. Just have to find my watch buried in all my stuff here.

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Thom Thumb, think u are a good guy but I think a lot of this is bs. You posted on IG, FB, or Twitter last year that you knew IMWI would be the last year for the pros. Granted and I'll give you credit you have legit reasons for wanting to sign up and race. But bottom line, you are a pro and u wanted to do this race bc u wanted a legit win and knew you could do it and wanted some sort of validation for it. So you live in Madison now year round? Prob not. I'm sure u still go to Tucson in winter. Your parents never seeing a race? I'll let it slide even though u have capitol view and other road races in one of the best areas to run in the country. Would def like to get the opinions of the Herings and Eicher and I'll let it go at that. DM me if you want to hang out in Chitown with all the USA boys on Sat night. We'll get a bottle for victory ....

its not a race anymore if fast people would not be allowed to enter
end of story really.

I much prefer races with pros. inspiring to see what they can accomplish. I hope WTC reverses its decision here and brings the pro purse back for more races. Never understood that decision in the first place.

Ofcourse that should be in pink. Couldn't resist a little Julie Miller reference when I saw one of the timing mats was apparently bad. Great race, and especially fantastic bike. I can't imagine 4:43 on that course.

For the record: I think anyone should be able to race anytime regardless of pro vs. amateur.

The only issue that I have is access to a sold out race. I appreciate that you can't comment, and it's not directed at you, but the "system".

Its personally frustrating for me because during several seasons (this year being one), I've found myself injured and unable to race the Ironman that I signed up for a year in advance, but in great condition 2 months later with no way into a sold out event. (This year, I'm screwed for Tahoe after taking the last 2 weeks off running for ITB, but would love to take a run at IMAZ.) I'm all for racing (and losing to) whoever shows up, but they should have to manage the same risks, logistical challenges, etc. that I do.

Easier solution to all of it. Without a Open Elite (purse <$5k) or a Closed Pro Elite Wave (Purse >$5k) for a race with more than 1000 participants, you simply don't recognize a overall winner. Or more accurately, without a mass start, how can you fairly award an overall win. Hard enough on rolling starts and multi-wave starts with an AG to have a fair AG race.

They don't usually recognize overall amateur winners in 70.3 races without pro fields. So why the big deal for IM.

I was branded an complete asshole when I brought up the same point at IM Maryland last year.


I think we all have our own hurdles in life. No need to make special recognition of those that sacrifice more or less. We all have choices to make. Honestly, even person that trains more than 10-12 hours a week and has a family is being somewhat irresponsible and has selfish priorities. It's just a fact. I'm guilty myself. Some might argue your setting a good example for a healthy lifestyle and chasing you goals. But OTOH, your spending less quality time with your family. Less is less, just as training more is more. Years from now I'll be proud of my accomplishments but I'll also have some regrets for being a bit absent for almost 2 years to train more. Then I took on a little coaching on the side too.

I'd say most amateurs put in a lot more hours training, working and family time than pros. They mainly sacrifice sleep and general downtime and aren't spending as much time stretching, core work, gym time, massages, chiro visits, etc. But there's a price to pay on all sides as I've said. Pros usually have to scrape out a meager living.

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Its WTC responsibility to clearly outline its policies BEFORE this shit happens...and set up processes to make it happen that way (registration)....

Personally, I also think pro/non pro distinctions are dumb....offer prize money or don't offer it.....fastest guy/women wins.....done

This is WTC responsibility to run their events with clear rules and they blew it....and then, as some one stated, they acted like 5 year olds....(no surprise there...)

Ironman did make a mistake taking Thomas's money, but I loved racing IM Muskoka without any pros. Had there been two pros on the course ahead of me I would have missed out on quite a bit of the AG only experience, that I really enjoyed. I visualized taking first place in an Ironman (unsuccessfully) for quite sometime prior to the race and it was part of the draw to me.

Ken

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

Not directly responding to you but I like the way you put it with no "overall" winner like in 70.3s. But my real question is why do so many people care? Thomas raced a race that had no pro purse and he did it within the rules. I have raced many a Oly race with no prize purse but plenty of pros since it was a race close to them. So why all the outrage when it's an IM? Whoever posted earlier about how they were going for the overall win wasn't happy because a pro won it I say get a bit faster. Those of you, us, that aspire to win overall races can cherry pick a race to win and even though I have had some good results and won a race overall I still don't toe the line expecting to win. And if I get beat by a pro, former pro, age group pro, or age grouper it doesn't matter to me. It means I was not the best on the day. It seems as if we, as triathletes, are a very entitled bunch that think things should be given to them. Again, this post is to no one specific just been thinking about that result and I listened to his TRS radio interview this morning.

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Reading the thread through I think I know what "happened." One or Two people who have some influence made the decision to remove you from the race results. They did so without consulting the rules and as it turns out they violated them. You should sue WTC. I am serious. You sustained an economic loss by not being declared the winner. The fact that you were declared the winner later is irrelevant, the opportunity for you to capitalize on your win was severely diminished the moment a few irresponsible people didn't pull the banner out for you. These irresponsible people were motivated by money. WTC wants to control every dollar that is generated by the race. Including your likeness. I bet it won't take much detective work to find that your changing of tops caused quite a flutter of text messages and emails from people who think that they, not you, should profit off your likeness.

I suppose a discussion on pros in age group fields is worth having, but a discussion on the rules as they are currently written is pointless. The rules are very clear: You were the overall winner and had every right to be there and race.

You got a comped entry from a race sponsor. In what race do they ever allow ANY person to sign up 2 days before the race? Your actions were bush league and this forum post confirms that. if you want to carry a pro/elite card, act like one both on and off the course.

Nobody makes a pro become a pro. If they want to stay amateur and beat the crap out of fellow AGers then I have no problem with it. Once you go pro, stay there until you give up the pro card. Also, I don't believe that there would be that many "out of the money" pros who would dominate the AG ranks once they had all the responsibilities of full time employment, less recovery and career building. They might, but I don't think it would be the cake walk that is being described.

Ken

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

And that is a great dream/goal. But is that at the exclusion of any pro who might want to race? Should they not be able to so agers can realize their dream? Wouldn't it mean more if you beat all-comers?

^ This!! Thomas was the fastest on the day. He was the overall winner...case closed. What is the BFD? Some age groupers act as if having a "pro card" imbues the holder with some magical powers that makes it unfair for them to compete against mere age group mortals. Got news for you folks...when you get into your 50s you will find a sizable number who are able to retire early and basically train and recover like a pro. Some may have won the lottery, built and sold a successful business, went from a successful high pressure job to a part-time physical trainer, or had no kids and retired early, etc., etc. I'm in my late 50s and still working fulltime but I know of at least a half-dozen folks in this category...and most are KQ'rs. Life is not fair so just accept that now.

I very (very) generally assume that when racing other AGers that I have similar access to time, money and other resources to make it a fair race. If pros show up then I assume that they have access to more time than I do, which when recovery and training are the critical elements of getting better make for a less even playing field. If I were beaten by someone going 8:59 at Muskoka who was in AG35-39 I would have had no problem with it at all, if that person had never had a pro card or had given it up. I would have been pissed if they had an active pro card and were just out for a training day.

Of course the above are sweeping generalizations, and just one guys opinion.

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman