yes. something i did not include in my article: IM intends to use a form of bio passport that is basically - my guess - what you describe. if your typical performance value is X, which is pretty easy to ferret out, and you throw down a Y, you'll be DQd.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

One question: What's the cost associated with participating on Rouvy for the VR series? Do we need a full blown subscription to Rouvy, or is IM footing the bill for anyone who wants to do their series on the Rouvy platform?

I understand that Rouvy (and just about everyone else these days) has a trial period, so the first race is likely fine. What happens when I want to participate in more than one race?

i don't know. i cannot imagine IM is footing the bill. whatever it costs, $15/mo or whatever, that'll be on you. otoh, if you're racing multiple times a month, at no charge, seems to me the rouvy charge is not that high. also, it's a great platform. in my mind it sits right behind zwift in the heirarchy of stationary platforms.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I agree. I have tried both Zwift and Rouvy and although I think Zwift is great I love the real feel of the Rouvy courses. I do think they need to adjust the way Rouvy transitions gradients. The uphills are way harder than the real world.

I have actually done a test on the Rouvy Boulder course of 25 miles and then done 25 miles outside with similar altitude changes (I live in Utah) on the same day. In Rouvy I averaged 17.5MPH on that course and outside I did 20MPH after busting myself to just average 17.5MPH on Rouvy!!! I feel this on every Rouvy ride. So, if they get that issue worked out I would be really satisfied with Rouvy.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Its $12 USD paid monthly, so ~$17 CAD to me, per the website for the premium. Less for the 'standard' - though my bet though is that the IM courses will be a premium course.

I'm already on the Sufferfest so this would be just for the race and for maybe the odd easy ride indoors. If they're adding guardrails and making this a legit race, my plan would be to target one or two over the summer and do a legit build & taper - more as a personal goal to keep me focused than anything else. So I'd really only be using it for a specific race or two. The question is if I want to pay $17 for the bike leg of a virtual race.

I think I need a little help understanding how all of this works. Let me note that I am someone that doesn't use Zwift or Rouvy. I do use TrainerRoad and a Garmin 920xt.

I've watched the "How it works" video from Rouvy twice now and I am still not sure how it works, lol. It says that the minimum requirement is a speed censor. Well, what if you have a disc wheel and cannot put a speed censor on for tracking purposes. What if use an old "dumb" liquid trainer with the wheel on. The trainer wouldn't track speed in this case. In my case what I do have are crank based power meters that will measure power and cadence. Does Rouvy do some sort of estimate of speed based on Watts/Kilo so that you can use their platform and race legally?

Additionally, I understand the need to have everyone race the same course on the bike. I want things to be as fair as possible. I am willing to play along. The marathon portion being outside does concern me a bit. I assume the whole thing is going to need to be self supported. That does cause some logistical issues.

Have there been any guidelines around how qualification for WC is going to work with virtual racing?

Also, the bio passport is something that is interesting to me. If you went onto my Strava account and look at my run data, you wouldn't be impressed. A large part of that is that I do a lot of running in the city where tall buildings totally jack up GPS numbers. However, I have done 4x70.3 races and an Ironman. Would they use prior race results as the estimator of "Legitness"? Again, really interested to see how this all plays out and I cannot wait to get back to racing...though I understand why we cannot.

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Ironman Lake Placid 2021| 70.3 Worlds St. George 2021

For another data point, I was considerably faster up col de la croix de fer in real life than on Rouvy. Less power in real life as well.

This is largely why I’d be shocked if Frodeno ever participated in any online race considering his aero advantage has largely been mitigated-unless I’m missing a setting. I know he does Fred rides and group rides, but I don’t think he races. Why get embarrassed if you can just go out and kill em in real life.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

I tried Rouvy and liked it, other than many of the courses being sparse. However I could never get any rides, races, or training rides ever to sync to Strava. So 8-10 rides completely lost, despite retrying all kinds of connections. None of them ever showed up in my history on Rouvy, and the FAQ and email to support never resolved it. Seemed it was just like tough luck they are gone.

So I signed up for Zwift as I had never used that, and found I liked it so much better than Rouvy. I am now running having an old Garmin footpod I hadn't been using to make my treadmill runs less boring. I am hooked on Zwift races and group runs, and unless something dramatically changes Rouvy won't get me back as a customer. I did keep my Trainerroad subscription and really enjoy using both, so don't see me ever giving up Trainerroad.

I think this partnership with Ironman makes sense for both Ironman and Rouvy, but I assume many consumers are like me and they will get one chance at this. However hoping this makes Zwift continue to evolve and bring more customer benefits. Competition is never a bad thing.

Gonna go out just a little bit on a pretty study limb and suggest that Ironman should be prepared for a lot of complaints when folks have to switch over to Rouvy. It's a decent enough platform, but the apps are awful. I never managed to finish a complete ride without the app crashing. I don't think the folks that get 80 km into their 90 km rides only to lose them to software bugs are going to be very happy.

Check the iOS App Store reviews and the most common rating (by far) is a single star. (30 folks have rated the latest version of the app.) The actual reviews (11 as of this writing) break down as:

1 star: 73%
2 star: 27%
3 star: 0%
4 star: 0%
5 star: 0%

No doubt there are plenty of folks reasonably happy with the app; bad experiences seem to be incredibly motivating to potential reviewers in ways that good experiences are not. 11 reviewers and 30 raters are also a pretty small sample. But they're not nothing. I do hope Ironman has learned from the Strava fiasco and has a better response ready,

Is there a schedule for future distances for the Ironman VR’s? Like any way to find out what VR 7 / 8 / 9 etc. will be? Or are they not really goi g by that anyhow? Seems difficult to just train for an unknown distance.

I did the first few and got frustrated with the results when I’d go “fact check” some of the guys ahead of me and saw average speeds of 32 on the bike. C’mon man! (I realize these were trainee sessions but ..........).

I rode all winter indoors. I’m outside now. Screw that garage for a while!! 😉

Rouvy is not intuitive at all. I am sitting here trying to figure out how to make the best of my free trial and I have no idea how to even do a ride. I am a millennial that understand technology too.

This is incredibly frustrating.

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Ironman Lake Placid 2021| 70.3 Worlds St. George 2021

Time for Challenge/PTO to create a VR Series using only Zwift. That would knock IM down a bit. I like to see market competition. Get with it already Challenge.

Dan, any insight on Challenge getting into the VR World?

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

That's what drew me to the app. I thought the more realistic the better, after all, what we are chasing is life-like experiences? I'm not sure why I didn't like it. The first 10 seconds were wow, I'm riding on actual roads, then it was meh. I don't know why. The cartoony cyclist and bike didn't help, seemed really outdated and clashed with the backdrop of an actual road.

i think you would like it better if there was a group you were riding with. what IM has to do now, that it's migrating its folks over to rouvy (see my article on the new racing division for ironman VR) is that ironman (not just rouvy) needs to organize and publicize when groups will leave. the "problem" with rouvy is too much choice. it's multiplayer. but, if you disperse 500 ants around an acre of ground, how long will it take them to form an ant trail?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The more IM tightens it’s grip, the more elements of racing will slip through its fingers.

I was a beta tester for Zwift when there was only a small loop and ghosts. I’ve started using Rouvy a couple of weeks ago.

My take based on the many rides I’ve done on both platforms is that Zwift is overly optimistic with its CDA estimates and for a given power, the speed seems often times off, at least on the flat courses. The only “real” course I’ve done on Zwift is the Alpe. There it seems to be pretty close. But on the flats I doubt it.

Rouvy seems to be the opposite. I think they make very broad assumptions for CDA and speed is underestimated. I rode Indian Wells today at low end tempo (267w) and didn’t break 58min on a net downhill course. On flat sections, I could match power and speed and they were off. Being 5’8’’ and 139lbs with a reasonably good position, I can usually hit 25mph at just about 220w.

With that said, I really like Rouvy, real courses, videos, and less crowded. I’ve only used the app on my Mac and didn’t have any issue. No crash etc. I think they’re nicely complementary apps.

I don't think that multiplayer is the right descriptor for Rouvy - that would presuppose some way to interact with the other players and have a way for their choices to impact you and vice versa. As I understand, you can see everyone else but there's no benefit to drafting, etc.

'Group solitaire' might be the better way to describe it.

Just did VR6 for kicks, pushing a bit on the bike and not much on the run. But most times I’ve looked at are total BS. 50yo guys riding 45min 40km and low 30min 10km.

you think there's a credibility problem there? ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Either that, or there are a lot pretty fast old dudes ;)
I did 1:55 total and I’m 28min behind 🤷🏼‍♂️

First place as of this morning is a 60 year old Italian gentleman with the following times:
3K run: 9:49
40K bike: 40:28
10K run: 35:00
Total: 1:25:17

Runs were treadmill, bike was "indoor cycle".

For comparison, Alistair Brownlee took gold in London at the 2012 Olympics with a 1:46:25 time: https://en.wikipedia.org/...012_Summer_Olympics_–_Men%27s#Results

Clearly, some people are missing out on Olympic contention. ;)

I'm glad that IRONMAN will be instituting tighter restrictions very soon. This is getting a bit ridiculous.

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

What is going on with the treadmills, I did two VR tris and after doing 62 on the bike on watopia on tt rig, so no draft, running 11 + 39 so 1 hr 52 and seeing people at home all belting out 3:30 3:40 km (who can't run that fast) I thought this has really missed the mark.

You can make your own races for groups in Rouvy. My friends and I are doing that but Ironman could easily set these up for subgroups like age group and gender.

I guess they may be using their GPS watches to capture speed without a foot pod, so just inferring from wrist movement (which is pretty inaccurate). Or worse. They aren’t running at all and just have the treadmill on, with runn capturing speed.

Yeah the wrist thing would do it. I thought I was shonky doing it on the track