But they have stated that the slots would only be awarded on selected events, and we don’t know what the style of event is yet.

Picture the zwift pro series races Lionel was racing in last year. If a similar setup was created later in the year where each country had 2-3 selected proven quality age groupers, where they weigh in and use ‘Ironman supplied’ trainers, treadmills and sensors, and a judge was on site, then that would eliminate the issue, correct? And for other online events, just don’t award spots so it’s just like zwift races, where there is 100% cheating, but it doesn’t really matter.

On the Rouvy platform - it looks good with obvious potential. I’m just not sure if anyone but zwift could turn around a platform capable of mass participation multi discipline races in the next week. Rouvy only just launched mac, and were pushing the fact they have adjustable colour schemes. I would presume they would need to create a full new compliment of bikes with TT units, disc wheels, new performance parameters etc to match. Also I would doubt (I am in no way a programmer) that adding a running component would be simple, with different frame rates, sensor platforms etc.

All is do-able, but time is the factor against it. If there is a 6 month development time, then it will be all but irrelevant. It needs to be operational in a fortnight, and for me, zwift is the answer.

3 reasons.

1) virtual racing is to racing as virtual sex is to sex, which is to say, virtual sex (a solo scratching the sexual itch) is not to be dismissed as invalid, unimportant, not vital. but it's not the same as when 2 people do it. it's always a stand-in for when 2 people do it. virtual racing is vital, important, valid. it's fun. it's good. but it's not the same as when you're sharing it, real-time, in-person, with others. so, i'm not going to legislate, sweat over, scrutinize, lose sleep over, the prospect of a cheater in a virtual race. the way you actually compete, for real, in a stationary race, is you get everybody together, calibrate their trainers, put everyone on a scale. this isn't that. so, i don't feel the same weight to make this kind of a race as inoculated from cheating.

2) it's quite hard to police this. the way you make it more fair is to require tech that makes it more exclusive. so, you do what you can, and then you stop at a certain point, because the overarching need here is to bring enjoyment to people who're under house arrest, who're bleeding money; whose loved ones are in peril.

3) we're in the middle of a worldwide pandemic. the internet is already going to get worse, because we all are trapped in our homes, can't leave, scared spitless, with nothing to do but take our frustrations and fears out on each other. don't really want that. not important enough to me. bigger themes at play.

and, look, i don't expect or want you to agree with me, brother. i'm answering your question. i respect your view. i don't disagree with your take on this. i'm explaining how i come to this. now, because of how i view this, i would likely randomize awards. i intend to give awards in our own events. but not performance based. it'd either be raffle based, or a modified version. 1 out of the top 10. 1 out of the next 10. 1 out of the next 10. like that. you can cheat your way to first place, but you can't cheat your way to a raffle win.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The raffle idea is brilliant. Just do the racing or training and u get a chance to race on a big stage. Perfect for this situation.

Agree.

Sorry, Not a fan of virtual anything.

I think this is a fantastic idea for many reasons and look forward to participating:
1. Gives para athletes an additional way to participate with less limitations. Eliminates the need for example, for a guide for blind/visually impaired athletes.
2. Way to participate in more group training/racing activities. Many age groupers do not race more than x3-4 a year due to travel and time restraints.
3. Youth involvement in shorter distances due to the need for less constant supervision.
4. Creates social opportunities for triathletes to connect from all over the world.
5. It is going to be a good long while for most of us to recover economically and professionally. This gives us a way to stay connected to the sport.
Looking forward to seeing what Ironman comes up with.

This VR thing was just inevitable. Everything is getting digitized. Esports is gonna make it to the olympics one day.
It was just a matter of time that Ironman gets into this.

Digital doping yes of course you gonna find some idiots lowering their weight but who cares. Same thing when we race in age groups. God knows how many would be caught.

Blackmirror meets Esports meets zwift meets ironman = a stadium full of spectators watching indoor Ironman on games like zwift. Broadcasted on youtube live. With live data such as HR/watts in real time.

This is all fine, until they start offering worlds slots for performing well at these races and then there are harder questions to answer. That does not mean they should 100% not offer worlds slots, but it needs to be offered with the understanding that preventing rampant cheating will likely be impossible. The only reason why I would be kinda OK with this is because so many races are being cancelled that the choice will be either just throw all those slots away, or let them be allocated in this very less-than-ideal manner. In that case, I think I'm OK with it, they and all of us, need to be pretty open about how likely it is that many qualifiers will have cheated to get their slots. That's if world's even happens...

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

My instinct is that virtual racing is a different sport than in person racing. I'm not sure it makes sense to combine e-sports with in person live competition.

Wondering what kind of fees they will be asking for those races. Or put differently how much are people willing to pay for that? What are your bets?

---

Instagram
Youtube Channel
Meta Endurance

Thanks for your valuable contribution to this thread.

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Did anyone participate in VR5? I was connected using Runkeeper (as a replacement for Strava). This worked great untill this weekend. I did the 70.3 but nothing synched. I received an email that they were having issues with Runkeeper.

Two days later I received a mail that I was a finisher and that the results will be mailed later. However, when I log in, it says I am not finished. The 5K run is greyed out, the rest is valid. When I upload sessions in or before the VR5 weekend, nothing is synched. If I upload sessions áfter the weekend, they will be synched. I am now wondering if they're working on the issues or that they already moved on? I didn't receive a mail with the results, but according the site I am no finisher either. I can't find any contactinfo to ask questions.

I could never get Runkeeper to connect so I gave up trying and just have everything go to Garmin Connect.

I just stumbled across this article from Tuesday that I take means all future VR races will have to be done on Rouvy and runs outside, basically completely cutting out Zwift. Also everything must be completed in 12 hours, so no stretching it across three days.

https://triathlonmagazine.ca/...late-virtual-racing/

Interesting; I don't use Zwift data except for Strava, record all my rides concurrently with my Garmin Edge 530 and post that to GC and TP (better training data). I wonder if that will work for the requirements, or if I now need to sign up for a Rouvy account. That'd be frustrating, given that I've used Zwift for four years, it's become the platform for a lot of bike e-sport racing...and I don't want to add one more subscription for just IRONMAN VR (as I'm sure others wouldn't as well).

Edit: checking the VR6 site, it doesn't look like the 12-hour restriction has been put in place yet:
IRONMAN VR6 is now open to the entire IRONMAN community and will be 5150® Simulation! Run 3 km, ride 40 km and run 10 km between 6 pm GMT on Friday, May 8 and 11:59 pm GMT on Sunday, May 10 to finish the sixth race in the IRONMAN Virtual Racing Series

And this is a nice summary of all the rules and what data is acceptable:
https://app.ironmanvirtualclub.com/...ing-in-an-ironman-vr

---

- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

here is the latest in IRONMAN Virtual Racing. there will be a second division, and nothing of consequence happens except in this division. cycling must be in rouvy. on the prescribed course for that weekend. running must be outdoors, not on a treadmill.

this solves a lot of cheating problems, or maybe not cheating but the way in which the system is worked. this also solves a STRAVA problem. however, you must sign up for Rouvy. i don't see any way around that. sign up for it, download it, learn it, use it. fortunately it's a good platform.

during the press conference i got zero indication that there would be 2 divisions, the free-for-all currently in place and then this new, tighter-rules, division. the way it was expressed in the press event was - to my understanding - we're moving it all onto this new platform, these new rules. however, i either misheard, or IM had second thoughts and decided to move forward with 2 divisions.

or, maybe it announced this second division, and now is reconsidering. i don't know. hard to read the body language.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, thanks for clarifying those points. I'm disappointed in the need for Rouvy, but I think to level-set the field they had to pick something. As someone who would like to get to Kona before I'm 65 (and at my speeds, that's about when it'll be), I would like to see this be as far as possible. People cut courses and cheat in real life, too, so it's not surprising that they'd do it when the honor system was employed. I'm glad to see IRONMAN doing what they can with what they have available.

---

- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

So I’m division 2 no more 37 mph paces on the bike?

it depends on how powerful your seat tube motor is. mine will only get me up to 35.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ah yes, 77kg on Zwift, 55kg on Rouvy. Can't wait.

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I downloaded it and rode for a few minutes. Didn't like the look and feel at all,looks weird and outdated having real world views of the streets with a cartoony cyclist. A little bit like some kind of virtual reality thing from the 90s. It's good they are trying to do something different to zwift and without seeing it I thought actual street views would be awesome, but it's not and it's made much worse with the cyclist graphics. Looks odd.

I agree. The transition between gradients is pretty harsh compared to other platforms. And while the ‘graphics’ are real, it doesn’t really feel realistic. The frame rate is weird for one thing. For example - I rode the Kona leg - the whole time I was looking at the bonnet of the filming car, and it was swinging on and off the shoulder. Because it was travelling at a decent speed when recording, it’s frame rate had to be slowed to match my riding speed. Every time I passed a cyclist on the recording, it’s like they were riding 10kph at 30rpm due to frame rate slowing. It’s just weird.

And the fact that we are now up to VR6 without riding a different track is ridiculous. It’s not a gear advertisement that a platform that promotes riding in real world stages hasn’t showcased that at all.

Also using a platform for Pro Races that has no running functionality is really odd, as the pros really only do a TT, it’s not remotely like multisport if they only do the bike leg.

I started using Rouvy a couple of weeks ago. I like it. I like that you have real video, real courses and far less busy courses. Also, since you follow real courses, it feels a bit more real life.

You definitely have weight cheaters but looking at several records and checking the strava discussions of these folks, I’m not sure they’re necessarily cheating. Some of them are using virtual power (not sure how it’s handled on Rouvy) and That’s where things break clearly. I rode Col the Colmiane yesterday. The record is 616w. For 75min give or take. Then some French dude has a 414w climb for 1:40 or so. I checked this strava chat and clearly he wasn’t cheating. And doesn’t seem to understand why it’s so off.

i think ironman is in a bit of a squeeze here. the more that's on the line (e.g., qualifying slots) the more they have to tighten things up. for the pro races on zwift, contestants have to use a second source of power to validate the first. in the case of IM and rouvy, i'd say virtual power is out. at a minimum they'd require a fairly decent smart trainer or a power meter.

but the more restrictions you put on it, the fewer will take part and i think the ambitions they have in mind require a lot of bodies. a lot of people. when the rule tightening was first presented, it wasn't (to my understanding) a new division. these were the new rules. the fact that it's a division now is i think an attempt to satisfy both needs. i think what you have now is an ironman virtual race, and an iron fondo, taking place over the same weekend.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I would assume nearly everyone has also outdoor rides, runs etc. to compare to. So, if you can't find one single ride/run that's "reasonably" close to what you've done virtually, then you're out.
I agree that virtual power should be a no go though.

there are two benefits to rouvy. 1. it's a real place. if you want really good visuals of an actual physical place, its tacx films. but rouvy's pretty good. the reason why this is or should be important to IM is that it can feature actual IM bike rides. i felt last year that IM was missing a real opportunity by not partnering with rouvy. imagine, for example, riding the nice WC 70.3 bike ride a few times in preparation for showing up to that race. IM's partnership with rouvy now is largely (i'm convinced) because rouvy agreed to a partnership when others wouldn't. but rouvy is the natural partner for IM and always has been.

2. it's multiplayer. you can have group events. races and rides.

so, for rouvy's drawbacks - and you have a more refined set of tastes than i do so you feel them more than i do - i think rouvy and IM are a perfect match. you could hold a virtual tour d'etap, during a grand tour, where a bunch of people virtually show up in the dolomites to ride up passo pordoi the same day the pros are riding up in the giro. great possibilities with that platform that really are not matched by any other platform.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman