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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [BowwwwBallll] [ In reply to ]
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Well, you haven't answered the most important question as to whether the original waiver would cover this.

Yes, you have an argument that the addition means it wasn't included before. There is an equal and opposite argument. But it's entirely moot if the original waiver covered it. If so, then the new waiver was surplusage and unnecessary and without any legal force and effect. Wouldn't be the first time some lawyer tried to boot and suspender something for no reason

And again, we sign waiver online AND at the race site for every race, and no racer has ever compared the two to see if the risks were now different and they can "back out of the deal."

Like I said, it's creative. My ,02 from reading the existing waivers you lose if you ever were to sue on it and it went to judgment

ETA Coz ain't gonna go anyway, their July "confirmation" notwithstanding
Last edited by: ChrisM: Aug 3, 20 12:55
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [BowwwwBallll] [ In reply to ]
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Bowwwwbillll wrote:
Perhaps. I'm willing to defer racing until there is a vaccine or similar treatment.


You may never race again.

https://www.marketwatch.com/...r-decades-2020-07-30
Last edited by: HuffNPuff: Aug 3, 20 13:14
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
Well, you haven't answered the most important question as to whether the original waiver would cover this.


No one can "answer" that question except a judge. I've given my reasoning as to why the original waiver wouldn't cover it, which you are free to disagree with.

ChrisM wrote:
ETA Coz ain't gonna go anyway, their July "confirmation" notwithstanding


Smart money says it doesn't go forward, which makes this move even more curious.

HuffNPuff wrote:
You may never race again.

I am pessimistic that we will get a vaccine as effective as the measles vaccine. I certainly hope that we do better than the flu vaccine though, although everything I've read to date seems to indicate that "slightly better than the flu vaccine" is where we are headed. I'm not a scientist, though, so I'll hold out hope that the people smarter than me have something up their sleeves.
Last edited by: BowwwwBallll: Aug 3, 20 13:12
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [BowwwwBallll] [ In reply to ]
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LOL, that's not true. A judge can interpret it, but you're a lawyer, you can read, you can too. You can read the prior waiver and make that objective call. That you have not answered the threshold question basically answers it for me
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [BowwwwBallll] [ In reply to ]
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If Dr Osterholm is correct, then we may be heading into a permanent future where you get the COVID Vax on some routine schedule, but there will be no guarantee that you still might not catch it. Freaking gloomy!
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
LOL, that's not true. A judge can interpret it, but you're a lawyer, you can read, you can too. You can read the prior waiver and make that objective call. That you have not answered the threshold question basically answers it for me

What in the world are you on about? I've already repeatedly stated what I think the answer to the question is.

The prior waiver does not contemplate the risk of COVID because the risk of COVID did not exist and thus could not have been contemplated at the time of execution.

Moreover, it is evident that the organizers recognized that the initial waiver did not contemplate the risk of COVID because they attempted a specific novation to include the risk. To be effective, the release must be clear, unambiguous, and explicit in expressing the intent of the subscribing parties. In determining a waiver’s scope, “California courts require a high degree of clarity and specificity in a release in order to find that it relieves a party from liability for its own negligence.” Cohen v. Five Brooks Stable (2008) 159 Cal.App.4th 1476, 1488.

Finally, waivers are strictly construed against the drafting party, which operates in favor of the argument that a waiver that did not include COVID, and then attempted to require a novation that did include COVID, actually contemplated COVID in the first place, the novation notwithstanding, is far from compelling. Cal. Civ. Code § 1654; Lund v. Bally’s Aerobic Plus, Inc. (2000) 78 Cal.App.4th 733, 738.

But all of this is still argument, not answer. After all, "[w]hether a contract provision is clear and unambiguous is a question of law, not of fact.” Madison v. Superior Court (1988) 203 Cal.App.3d 589, 598.


It would be a poor lawyer indeed who stated confidently that this is an "objective" call. It would be borderline malpractice to pretend that there is an answer, and no lawyer even remotely worth the title would pretend that it's an easy call. Any lawyer that pretended that the ultimate question of enforceability was actually a threshold question should probably contact his law school and see about getting his money back.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [BowwwwBallll] [ In reply to ]
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LOL, OK sparky. I see you're one of those young buck sow his oats personal insult type of lawyer. And yet, still, you haven't answered the question.

Good luck, with the race and the practice
Last edited by: ChrisM: Aug 3, 20 13:42
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
LOL, OK sparky. I see you're one of those young buck sow his oats personal insult type of lawyer

Good luck, with the race and the practice

The only person throwing around insults here is you. You've probably had enough internet for today.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [BowwwwBallll] [ In reply to ]
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BowwwwBallll wrote:
ChrisM wrote:
LOL, OK sparky. I see you're one of those young buck sow his oats personal insult type of lawyer

Good luck, with the race and the practice


The only person throwing around insults here is you. You've probably had enough internet for today.


Good one! I'm sure you're a fine representative for your clients.
Last edited by: ChrisM: Aug 3, 20 13:45
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
Good one! I'm sure you're a fine representative for your clients.

Well, I don't pretend to have ready answers to unsettled matters, I cite my assertions, and I refrain from both insults and LOLspeak.

So while I wouldn't say I've got it all figured out (which would be the height of hubris), I certainly do my level best, and the results over the past decade-plus seem to indicate that it's working.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [BowwwwBallll] [ In reply to ]
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Is IM Cozumel an Ironman owned or Ironman licensed event? Judging by the deferral options and contact email address, I would suggest that it is a licensed event owned and run by a Mexican event organizer (Asdeporte) which may throw a spanner in the works for any legal action from the USA.I can easily see WTC passing the buck on this one.

https://asdeporte.com/
Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Aug 3, 20 13:53
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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Licensed
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
Is IM Cozumel and Ironman owned or Ironman licensed event? Judging by the deferral options and contact email address, I would suggest that it is a licensed event owned and run by a Mexican event organizer (Asdeporte) which may throw a spanner in the works for any legal action from the USA.I can easily see WTC passing the buck on this one.

That's an interesting question and one to which I don't have an answer. I would hope that one of the requirements that IM (the umbrella organization) places on its international partners is a certain level of customer service and related conduct.

Ultimately, there are few practical remedies; it's impractical to sue for the return of my thousand bucks, whether in MX or USA, and if they deny people deferrals and hold the race anyway, that's the only real recourse that someone would have.

One is ultimately forced to hope that either Adesporte and/or IM makes the actuarial decision to protect the brand rather than keep a few thousand. But there's really no way to tell what's going to happen.

I'll keep you posted.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Bowwwwbillll wrote:
Perhaps. I'm willing to defer racing until there is a vaccine or similar treatment.


You may never race again.

https://www.marketwatch.com/...r-decades-2020-07-30

I literally have not seen anyone but my wife, son and parents inside 2 m since March 13th. I had a few distanced workouts starting a month ago with 2 training friends and I did two distanced walks with employees at my company. Other than that, its been a 100% virtual world until three weeks ago our pools opened set up double wide 4 people in a double lane where I have come inside 2m of an unknown human. My wife has done groceries.

I miss interactions with real humans, but we decided to do our piece to limit all contact and interactions to reduce how this thing spread. I may not be for all the measures personally, but supported them all. I'm for a return to racing and normal human stuff when the time is right wherever it is. Our Canadian triathlon nationals in Montreal were moved to Oct 2-4. I just asked organizers to move my entry to next year, because I don't believe that even if they have the race, i won't contribute to unneccessary human to human interaction.

So the thought that we may never have large races again did cross my mind when I deferred and I am OK with that. I am training 18-20 hrs per week because I can, not because of any racing. With how much the wrong things were reopened (I am for opening up some low risk things, but not high risk stuff....I kept my company shut because it feels like indoor work for long periods is still high risk).

I am hoping to do the Alpe d'Huez tri next year, but only if I don't put others in jeopardy with air travel. The actual races themself are low risk. Thus local racing or local anything outdoors we have a chance for. The stuff involving lots of travel, hotel and restaurants is going to be problematic for some time, vaccine or not (per the article you quoted).

Sooooo.....nothing wrong if we just have local racing for 2-3 years. In the early days of this sport, that's all there was other than a few people getting on a plane to go to Hawaii or Nice, then ITU Worlds...other than that, it was all close to home.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev - I have not been nearly as cautious as you have. I've been swimming about 4 x a week (outdoors) since early May. I've eaten out weekly since then. In July, I took two separate road trips for vacation which meant 14 hotel/B&B nights and eating out daily. I visited many tourist attractions. So yeah, I've contributed to unnecessary human interaction. But I've also been mindful of Japan's advice to avoid the three Cs (closed spaces, crowded places, and close-contact settings) to the extent possible. I will also be flying later this month which is probably the riskiest thing but per MIT the odds of catching the virus are something like 1 in ~4400 for a completely full flight and 1 in ~7700 if the middle seats are kept vacant (I'll be on the later). I'm hopeful there is a vax next year with at least moderate effectiveness because I do want to travel internationally again.
Last edited by: HuffNPuff: Aug 3, 20 14:36
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Dev - I have not been nearly as cautious as you have. I've been swimming about 4 x a week (outdoors) since early May. I've eaten out weekly since then. In July, I took two separate road trips for vacation which meant 14 hotel/B&B nights and eating out daily. I visited many tourist attractions. So yeah, I've contributed to unnecessary human interaction. But I've also been mindful of Japan's advice to avoid the three Cs (closed spaces, crowded places, and close-contact settings) to the extent possible. I will also be flying later this month which is probably the riskiest thing but per MIT the odds of catching the virus are something like 1 in ~4400 for a completely full flight and 1 in ~7700 if the middle seats are kept vacant (I'll be on the later). I'm hopeful there is a vax next year with at least moderate effectiveness because I do want to travel internationally again.

I am interested in the "full flight" odds. Here is why. Actually I would bet on board the aircraft itself, the risk is low, because the air turnover is relatively high compared to most other indoor settings given the Air craft air conditioning systems. I believe from my aviation days, its around 2x or 3x the turnover compared to a good office building, but my aviation days ended 24 years ago...so things have gotten better from what I understand on the newer aircraft like Dreamliner and A380 (soon to be decommissioned LOL).

My larger concern, is in the airport itself and in the actual ramp to get into the airplane. I THINK this would add to the odds, or do the odds include those locations. My parents (77 and 82, with my dad in the vulnerable group with diabeters) flew from Asia through Qatar back to Canada on a repatriation flight on April 28th and it was all pretty smooth. From what we know, no one from that flight or the feeder flights got sick from this.

My personal caution was simply around, "if we all sit out for 4-8 weeks and literally don't interact with anyone" this thing would literally be dead and we can move on with life. If that's not going to be the case and life moves on with the virus forever, I have to take on another personal tactic.

Here in Canada, we're getting close with single digit or low teen deaths daily, but now case numbers again creeping back up, so we're not out of the woods like New Zealand where we get to play like normal in our own national bubble.

So its feeling like no large racing for quite a while and I am counting on local racing only next year and treating any races with travel as bonus. I have to travel to India, Scotland, Dubai and Florida to close deals for work at some point (not sure how I will do that remotely but lets see), so at some point, I think I gotta get on a plane for life in general, not for triathlon will come to a head. So hopefully I am not creating trouble when I get on a plane for work for others around me, which means getting on a plane for triathlon to go to Alpe d'Huez or Kona 70.3 or Florida 70.3 turns into a non issue too.

But I will take local racing, local business, local life in the mean time. At this point, I would actually take an 8 week Wuhan style lockdown worldwide to kill this thing off, but we'd all have to do it or its fairly useless.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
At this point, I would actually take an 8 week Wuhan style lockdown worldwide to kill this thing off, but we'd all have to do it or its fairly useless.

I lost my illusion 4 weeks ago... when our new cases went from 20/d to 140/d. It take only one... and that lockdown was for nothing.


My hope is that mandatory mask will help keep numbers reasonable.
Not sure it's it's me, but with 3 days the mandatory mark, the tone in the city has change... more people are out and they seem to be less fearful of everything.


In the meanwhile, i'm keeping an eye on this: https://www.nytimes.com/...vaccine-tracker.html
I'm planning my 2021 season with the expectation of getting a shut at some point between March and May.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [benleg] [ In reply to ]
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benleg wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
At this point, I would actually take an 8 week Wuhan style lockdown worldwide to kill this thing off, but we'd all have to do it or its fairly useless.


I lost my illusion 4 weeks ago... when our new cases went from 20/d to 140/d. It take only one... and that lockdown was for nothing.


My hope is that mandatory mask will help keep numbers reasonable.
Not sure it's it's me, but with 3 days the mandatory mark, the tone in the city has change... more people are out and they seem to be less fearful of everything.


In the meanwhile, i'm keeping an eye on this: https://www.nytimes.com/...vaccine-tracker.html
I'm planning my 2021 season with the expectation of getting a shut at some point between March and May.

1) If the whole world sits at home for 4-8 weeks, way more people would die from starvation than the virus.
2) you are asking 8B+ people to do something with 100% fidelity for 4-8 weeks. That would be a first in the history of the universe.
3) there is no guarantee that would work. Pretty sure humans aren’t the only ones carrying the virus around.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [Calvin386] [ In reply to ]
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Calvin386 wrote:
null-and-void wrote:
Calvin386 wrote:
If a race goes, I'm racing

No worries


Great! So you race, have a great performance, and then come home, where that might be. On return, you won't be near family, friends, coworkers, neighbors, essential workers, public officials, or other people who might have compromised immune systems or who might be connected to people who have compromised immune systems. Just trying to get my head around the desire to go to a major race in a time of pandemic.

My only fault with Cozumel's release is that if they require such a release regarding Covid, then they probably shouldn't be hosting the event.


t's a weird thing.... My personal experience with this pandemic is vastly different than what I read and hear.

I go to work everyday where 8500 people work indoors in close quarters. Very little is different from before the pandemic besides masks which hardly anyone wears correctly. There are no pandemic related issues that would be anymore than the normal seasonal sickness in a place this size

I go to the gym 4 days a week since May 1. No masks. Gym is almost full (not quite pre-pandemic numbers), basketball courts, treadmills, pool, weight areas are being used with normal courtesy cleaning. No issues

My parents are in their 70's along with aunts in their 80's. They have also been living life as normal (Church, stores etc...) with no issues.

The past few weekends I attended multiple graduation parties. They were put on as normal with no issues.

I train outside as normal including runs in the park that is being used normally by others who are exercising and enjoying the outdoors. I would say that the numbers are down from pre-pandemic levels. No one is wearing masks and I would say this is the place where I see the least social distancing in a public setting.

Right or wrong... I have paid little attention to the "hysteria" surrounding the pandemic. I have never worn a mask outside of where required by my workplace like any other required PPE. I am respectful of those who are more concerned about this virus. I do not get in their personal space and avoid places that may bring me in close contact with those who may be uncomfortable with someone not wearing a mask. However, most places that I frequent, about 25% are wearing masks.

I don't know one person who has or has had C19 nor anyone who knows anyone who has or has had C19
That's not weird.

What's weird is that the tone of your post suggests you think everything is fine and will remain so just because you haven't personally experienced it yet. You speak as though what matters is whether you make people feel uncomfortable rather than whether you are putting them at unnecessary risk. You do realise that this pandemic is in fact a real thing that has killed hundreds of thousands already, a disproportionate number of them in your own country? It's not just hysteria.
The fact that your community sounds like it's taking a rather cavalier attitude should worry you. What's weird is that on the contrary it seems this attitude reassures you that everyone outside your community is making a big deal over nothing. I hope you are lucky enough that your illusion lasts. There's a reasonable chance that it won't, and that your attitude and that of your acquaintances will kill a fair number of people. Good luck.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [Grantbot21] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I understand the race asking those who choose to race to sign a wavier, but you should certainly be provided an option to defer at the very least.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [benleg] [ In reply to ]
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benleg wrote:
...I'm planning my 2021 season with the expectation of getting a shut at some point between March and May.
I presume that was meant to be "a shot"?
If so, I reckon it's possible but probably a little optimistic.
First vaccines need to be proved effective. Then proved safe. Then they need to be manufactured and distributed in sufficient quantities to first immunize those at most risk and then the rest of us.
That's a lot to happen in 8-10 months. I personally doubt it will happen that fast unless so much pressure is brought to bear by Trump, Putin, and others that corners may well have been cut. In fact that's a very good reason to want Trump out of office.
We need politicians to facilitate vaccine production and distribution but it may be best they're not actually driving it.
Trump for example, has proven himself unable to admit ignorance or error and demonstrated he's willing to bully and put others art at risk to save face. I fear he'll try and push through an inadequately tested vaccine in the US, and may already be trying to do so. The last thing we need is a dodgy vaccine providing a false sense of security or providing anti-vaxers with even a shred of credibility. It's one thing to challenge the normal timelines for producing vaccines, it's quite another to take shortcuts without properly assessing any associated risks.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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The only people that may need a shot are the elderly and people with pre-existing conditions. Everyone else is either asymptomatic or gets over it pretty easy. Hardly anyone got a vaccination for H1N1 and you don’t even hear about it anymore. I think this thing is WAY more political than anything.

As for the OP, just sign the damn thing and be happy you can go racing. Quit being a Karen. Race or don’t race. No need for all the drama. That’s half the problem with the world. We don’t need anymore.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [AchillesHeal] [ In reply to ]
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AchillesHeal wrote:
benleg wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
At this point, I would actually take an 8 week Wuhan style lockdown worldwide to kill this thing off, but we'd all have to do it or its fairly useless.


I lost my illusions 4 weeks ago... when our new cases went from 20/d to 140/d. It take only one... and that lockdown was for nothing.


1) If the whole world sits at home for 4-8 weeks, way more people would die from starvation than the virus.
2) you are asking 8B+ people to do something with 100% fidelity for 4-8 weeks. That would be a first in the history of the universe.
3) there is no guarantee that would work. Pretty sure humans aren’t the only ones carrying the virus around.

I should have clarify that: My illusions were limited to western canada (~10m people)... I was really hopping that with our low case count we could be at a zero by now. While all of Canada is doing a great job right now, but the restriction are here to stay.

I never had any hope for the rest planet.
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [TrekGeek] [ In reply to ]
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"Everyone else is either asymptomatic or gets over it pretty easy."

That statement is so wrong. It amazes me that there are people out there thinking like that. Unfortunately, as long as there is the pandemic will grind forward.

Andrew Inkpen
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Re: Ironman Cozumel Demanding Athletes Sign a COVID-19 Waiver/Release [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Calvin386 wrote:

Since those comments, I have been to work and/or gym each day and my experience was the same. I did not perceive it.


Yes, we get it. It's your experience. We're merely suggesting you read about some other people's experiences to maybe reconsider some of your life choices. And help keep your area as free from COVID as it seems to be.

E.g. there seems to have been a perception in the past that "it's not in this area" as justification to live life as normal.

But life is *not* normal. And that logic hasn't worked out well in the long-term for some areas. Like Florida.

Public health is not intuitive. When you do it well it feels like you're doing a lot of stupid things for nothing.

I have read about other's experiences. That's where the disconnect is. I frequent 2 states daily (both rural and metropolatin settings) that have similar reported numbers and guidelines.

On my daily travels, I am seeing nothing resembling what I am reading.

I follow all required guidelines
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