Dude, I don't care about the run but if I do manage to sit on your wheel all the way will you at least let me lead the way into T2 so I can collect my bonuses for first off bike? I'll give you 3% of bonuses and a beer at the awards..

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

LMAO!

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"Fear is what drives you in the last part of a marathon in an Ironman. The body is depleted and the mind is fuzzy. Short course racing is driven by power and finese at the end of a race, Ironman demands so much more and is driven by will and mental strength." Chris McCormack

10/28/08 Dev Paul had 400w FTP!!!

The rationale is not "it's OK to do so long as no one sees you" - it's "this rule is not enforced, so why should I follow it if no one else is going to?"

Rules are what define a sport. Some rules are really particular to a certain sport - drafting is a particular rule for triathlons, but other sports have them too. Swimming, for example, is very big on false starts. Triathlon has the same rule on false starts, but it's never enforced, no one cares about it, and it's not obeyed nearly as rigorously as it is in swimming.

I don't really want to argue with you here, because I think you are right. You can't just go around breaking rules because you think you won't get caught. But I think it is more complicated than that. A rule that's never enforced (reflective tape, cutting/folding bike numbers, drifting out past the starting line) soon stops being a rule at all.

You had me at 3%.

They sell beer at the awards? How in the hell have I been missing that?!

Selling? I think they just hand it out but I'll personally fetch it for you.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Seeing as there are so many pros posting to this thread I'm going to give you a heads-up on IMC '09 - I'm registered

Ditto. Look out.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Man, I'm feeling bladed here....what about the teammates? I drink beer too. Remember, the bigger the group, the less work.

Hey - were you the one that let D in the van?

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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D?

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

VIP's get it for free. Regular schlubs have to pay for it...

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

I should add that I was also out on the course Sunday leap-frogging the lead ~20. Things did look a bit tight at times (the arrival of 7 guys within about 10 seconds at Cawston comes to mind) but I'll leave the calling out to others.

Regardless, it is awesome to watch you guys race.

Nice, next year my beer is free!

I whole-heartedly agree.

A few minutes rest period can have enormous advantages. The risk of getting caught drafting for a mandatory rest period that may well improve your overall time , just does not make sense.

Knowing that you will have to run 43 or 44.2 km's is surely wiser.

Wjy do all of these points never get taken into consideration.

Perhaps Slowman can set us up a thread for penalty ideas or a petition for each athlete to have a WTC id where they will have their " athletic record' recorded. Thereby making drafting in one race not only enforceable in that particular race , but in their overall record. Sort of like your driver's licence.

Terry

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

Due to some nasty asthma issues as well as nutritional problems, D (cuds) was convinced to get in the SAG van at ~mi55 by Rebecca Preston (who was also in the van after a rough day at the office). Nutrition issues aside, the girl couldn't breathe - which kind of makes it hard to do an IM.


I had told her that you were under strict orders not to let her in the van, but she doesn't listen to me anyway... That post was more for her than a "real" question for you (though I was curious if she was in your SAG vehicle, just because that would be sort of funny).

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

No worries, you're in. Keep in mind though that Bjorn will be putting the beer on your chair and expect you to sit on the table to drink it.

I think the officials probably do the best job they can under the dircumstances. To bust someone for drafting you have to rideup on them on a motobike, get alongside and verify that they are less than 10m behind before dishing out a card. Of course, by the time that happens, any guy who was riding 7m behind is now 11m behind. The call then becomes too subjective.

It's up to the race organisers to be creative. Technology needs to be used to offset the cost and it must be discrete because that is what is the failure point with the current approach. Most of the technology is there and deployed on the course anyway with the timing mats. Increase the frequency, add some dummy ones in. And yes Dev, loops of shame to shred the legs.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

I just hope you're signed up for Clearwater. That will be an awesome race report.

But congratulations on a great race.

In reply to:

As for the AG situation - this is completely different. Here, it is a major physics problem that at times( first 40 - 60K on this course) you have too many people, on too little road, with too little challenge. Eventually it does sort itself out, but you can't put that many people on the road, in that short a period of time and have them abide exactly by the rules. The rules are great, but they are asking the athletes to do something that is impossible to do.

This was a problem at IMC 15+ years ago when the field was half the size that it is now. I suspect it is only worse now. People say ease up and let them pass. Well that's fine, but if you swim 1:10'ish at IMC these days, you might as well just pull over to the side of the road anywhere along the road to the Husky station in Oysoyos, set up a lawn chair and wait for 20 - 30 minutes for it to thin out, then head out again. Remember, this is a race - not a tour.


Reply:
Funny thing is you sell wetsuits, so I assume you're somewhat swim centric. My theory is if the drafting rules were enforced, a IM race would be much more evenly balanced as far as the swim is concerned. If you swim sub 1 hour, youshould have no problem riding your pace. If you swim 1-1:20 you are going to have to either surge past people for 50 miles or be constantly dropping back. This gives the fish a much bigger advantage than 5- 10 minutes would really indicate.

Also, If you're being passed I don't see an issue, everyone assumes that if a long line of riders passes you, you have to let every one go by. If the group is creeping you just move over and then the next guy in line is responsible for dropping back behind you.

Styrrell

Thanks Khai, I appreciate that very much.

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-Matt Lieto

Funny thing is you sell wetsuits, so I assume you're somewhat swim centric.

Actually, I am triathlon centric! It's about three sports - swim/bike/run and putting them all together on race day.

The rest of your post I am somewhat confused about. Not sure what you are getting at.

I will say this - "rush hour" at big IM races has slowed somewhat over the years. It used to be 1:00 - 1:10. That's still pretty hectic these days, but it's absolutly nuts at around 1:20. Stand right at the exit from T1 at any big IM and you will see the problem quite clearly - it looks like the roll-out at the start of a Tour de France stage!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

My point is after every major IM you hear 2 complaints.

A) If you come out at rush hour its too congested to ride legally.

B) If you're a fish you really don't get much advantage vs being a top cyclist or top runner.

I'm just pointing out that enforcing the drafting rules would "solve" both issues. Rush hour swimmers would have probably 20 minutes added to their bike time due to having to ride legally, so in effect if you swim 1:00 vs 1:20 it should be a 40 minute advantage. Front pack swimmers are the one who are mostly hurt by not enforcing drafting.

Note that this wasn't really in reply to you specifically other than your statement that a rush hour swimmer would practically have to sit by the side ofthe road for a 1/2 hour to ride legally.

Styrrell

ok... I'm playing a little catch-up here (I'm finally sober and back to CowTown).

Thanks Scott, for the recognition of racing a clean race. I have to admit that I was upset when I saw the line across your number on race day. At first I thought the line was for a drafting penalty, which made no sense to me as we've raced against each other so much and I know that you are a clean racer (you are not a drafter). When I learned on Monday (from Johnyo) that the line was for dropping a bottle, I was pissed as you rode such a strong clean race and it wasn't fair that you were singled out for such a small infraction when it appeared that others were clearly taking advantage of the lack of officiating.

I guess sitting back 100m it's always hard to tell perspective (distances) but I was surprised that some of those athletes were putting time on me on an into the head wind section.

Oh... I had similar choice words for that pro who you spoke to after Richter, but I probably wasn't as polite about it as you were.

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Kyle Marcotte
Team Timex Multisport
http://teamtimex.timexblogs.com/ - http://calgarytriandbike.blogspot.com/ - http://twitter.com/dukyle/

B) If you're a fish you really don't get much advantage vs being a top cyclist or top runner.

Well if I was a Fish I would want to have a little sit-down with the pioneers of the sport and try and figure out why swimming and swimmers got such a raw deal. The ratios of the all the popular race distances make the swim something that in the grand scheme of things matters very little.

Ironically, the only format and distance that the swim really matters, is the ITU format, which few seem to like! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Historically I understand (the three individual races in Oahu). Practically for other distances the majority don't want much swimming. I think 1 or 2 promotor have tried eventswhere the s/b/r were pretty equal, with dismal participation.

Styrrell

everyone assumes that if a long line of riders passes you, you have to let every one go by. If the group is creeping you just move over and then the next guy in line is responsible for dropping back behind you.


If you follow the rules you DO have to let everyone go by. If you get passed, you HAVE to get out of the draft zone of the guy/gal that passed you. While doing that, if another cyclist passes you, you have to drop again. If the long line is riding at the minimum legal distance, you have no choice but to drop at the back of the line. Drafting packs do form because cyclists don't follow the rules, do not understand the rule, and try to overtake without dropping back out of the drafting zone.

Francois in Montreal