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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
DJRed wrote:

I just raced IMMD. There were no pros. The race was just fine. My day was great. I have no less than 100 Facebook likes on pictures. I have told my training and raceday stories to no less than 100 people. I spent almost $300 on IM gear to remember the day and I've yet to order any of my course pictures. I'll continue to talk to anyone who will listen about what a great day and accomplishment this was for me and my family. I suspect there are 1500 or so other finishers from IMMD who are in the same boat with the same story.

Explain to me again the selfishness and tyranny of all this? Explain to me again about how my sharing of this amazing experience is not good for the sport?

By the way, I've been asked a lot of questions about the race by friends and family. Everything from "Was I scared" to "Did I pee on the bike" to "Was the water cold". You know what nobody has asked me either after the race or during my months of training: "Which pros were at the race?" Hell, I don't even think people realize there's a winner in IM races.


It sounds like you had a great day, and you've engaged a lot of friends and family. You've probably even inspired some to start triathlon. That's all good for the sport.

The selfish part is that you don't care about anyone other than beginners and/or MOP racers. The tyrannical part is your open disdain for those who don't fit in your "category" of participants. You not only don't care about pros & FOP amateurs, you seem to wish that they didn't even exist.

And the reason it's tyrannical is that when the mass majority doesn't care about one segment of a population, it has the power to drive that segment out. I've seen it happen in countless running races when a competitive no-frills race becomes popular with beginners. First it's all good, but then the race becomes more and more focused on the beginners (because that's where the money is), and forgets about the minority of people who race competitively (and actually crowds them out). Soon, there's nothing of the race left for the competitive people. Over, and over and over this has happened in the past 15 years.

Look, there's room enough in triathlon for all "categories" of racers. I've welcomed and encouraged more beginners to the sport than you have "likes" on your facebook IM finisher photo. All I ask is that you respect that there needs to be a place for all levels of competitors. You don't have to care about them. But respect the fact that others do care.

For when you come on a forum and repeatedly advocate that triathlon has no need for pros, you are being selfish, exclusionary, and tyrannical. And that pisses me off, and makes me sometimes wonder why I'm so eager to welcome beginners to sport. Because while overall triathlete numbers continue to grow, that vast majority is crowding out some crucial segments of the population.

I don't think he ever stated that triathlon has no need for pros, just instead that they play a much smaller role in people's decisions regarding events than people on here are giving them credit for. WTC has seemed to identify their business driver as the mop/bop AGer which I would define as the vast majority of those competing. I find it interesting that I keep reading on here about how the pros should be compensated more from the same people who seem to have a problem with new triathletes and get upset about some of the crowded races.

I fail to understand how pros are a crucial segment of the population when no one can articulate a value they bring to the table other than what they do is difficult and maybe generates an article about a race that only other triathletes would read anyway.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people

So, what are you trying to say? What if one of those 6 were you? Or one of your family members or friends?

Why do we not cut if off at 15 hours? It might only be 100?

Why even have a cutoff at all?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure most triathletes didn't know that. Do you have a releaseable copy of the contract? That would be very interesting....

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I am saying participants can spend 20 minutes in transition instead of 35 and make the cut-off.
You make it 16:45 and they will dial in their performance to finish within that time. I would not be opposed of starting a 70+ wave at 6:45am as well.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:

...and the above is exactly where you are wrong.

I do not have disdain for pros and I am not trying to drive them out in any way. What I do have disdain for is people who tell me I need to support the pros becuase they are the lifeblood of the sport. They are not. This is easily proven by realizing that if for the next 10 years only the pros raced IM, IM would fold. Conversely, what would happen if only AGers raced IM for the next 10 years? I know you get that.

Additionally, just becuase they can do it faster than I can doesn't somehow make them more entitled to do it in AMERICA.

So let's agree there's room for all of us. However, the concept that one group needs to be subsidized because they have decided to do this for a living is outrageous. That concept, I have disdain for.

I hope you stick around long enough, with an open mind, to gain a perspective larger than your own.

FWIW, I'd rather my entry fee be weighted toward the pro prize purse, rather than paying for a gazillion lifeguards, road closures on the bike for 11 hours, and aid stations every mile of the marathon. But you know what? I don't lobby for that because I accept there's a place for people finishing slower than 16 hours, even though they're a small percentage and their race eats up a disproportianate share of the costs. So be careful about whining about the outrageousness of subsidizing small groups of racers. That finger might be pointing at you and your buddies.




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people

Why not just move the damn cutoff to 12:15 and let those in the 80+ AG finish sub 17 without telling them to HTFU or get more aero (as someone earlier suggested to save a few minutes)
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people

So, what are you trying to say? What if one of those 6 were you? Or one of your family members or friends?

Why do we not cut if off at 15 hours? It might only be 100?

Why even have a cutoff at all?

.

Kona cutoff time is now 16:45? What are folks even still doing at that time besides walking?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
Craig, KONA numbers have been exactly the same the last 3 years....the 2 waves have nothing to do with increasing numbers...

Here it is from the CEO of WTC himself:

Julia Polloreno: With this week’s announcements of two new Ironman events—in Barcelona and Taiwan—it begs the question: How do you grow the international Ironman event roster, while the number of Kona slots must remain the same?

Andrew Messick: The big challenge that we have in Kona is not in fact the size of the pier, which is what most people think, but rather the extreme concentration of gifted athletes in that particular race. It creates problems unique to Kona. Last year we had 1,100 athletes get out of the water in a 15-minute period, between 55 minutes and 1:10. That concentration of really strong swimmers, all of whom can ride a bike, is our operational limiter. What we’re most mindful of when we think about how we manage Kona, and we’re really focused on, is how can you have a world championship event with the best athletes in the world and yet still create a race that’s going to be fair for everybody. So we’re very thoughtful about that, and our ability to solve some of those operational problems is really what is going to govern the size of the race at Kona, and by extension, any slots we have at different races around the world. We are virtually certain to have a separate age-group men and age-group women start in Kona this year. That is largely designed to manage and reduce swim density. Swim density of course creates conditions where bike density happens because the rate at which people get out of the water and onto the bike course determines the extent to which we’re able to have a clean bike. The more direct answer is: we expect the size of Kona to increase.

Read more at http://triathlon.competitor.com/...#YyTpzd8xlLSOoWt7.99

So, yes, the split AG start has everything to do with increasing the number of participants at Kona and, by extension, the number of IM branded races around the globe.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people

No, those 6 finishers are more important than the integrity of the professional women's race.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
I am saying participants can spend 20 minutes in transition instead of 35 and make the cut-off.
You make it 16:45 and they will dial in their performance to finish within that time. I would not be opposed of starting a 70+ wave at 6:45am as well.

Why judge others? Maybe they had a flat tire. Or maybe that had a cramp. It just gets SO old so many are basically saying get rid of the old folks since they are "slow".
They pay their equal entry fee. In this case, they signed up for a race with 17 hours to finish, and now saying is it only 16:45?

Us old folks already get shafted since we have to start at the end of races. So we have to wait longer. We have to race usually in hotter weather. At times race
support folks or food is gone. After the race food at times can be gone. Etc., Etc.

For these few folks that are still able to race, compared to all the others who blew their bodies apart, they are my idols.

There are so few folks older around me that can race at all, let alone fast. So everytime I see the posts that judge older racers, I just say, your time will come.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Run For Money] [ In reply to ]
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Run For Money wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people


So, what are you trying to say? What if one of those 6 were you? Or one of your family members or friends?

Why do we not cut if off at 15 hours? It might only be 100?

Why even have a cutoff at all?

.


Kona cutoff time is now 16:45? What are folks even still doing at that time besides walking?

Who cares and what right do any of use have to judge them? They paid their entry fee for a 17 hour cutoff race. And to now have some say it is only a few folks older folk so who cares?
I wonder if this is a blind racer if this matters? Or Dick Hoyt? Or a firefighter racing in full gear. Or, or, or.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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andrewnova wrote:
I don't think he ever stated that triathlon has no need for pros, just instead that they play a much smaller role in people's decisions regarding events than people on here are giving them credit for. WTC has seemed to identify their business driver as the mop/bop AGer which I would define as the vast majority of those competing. I find it interesting that I keep reading on here about how the pros should be compensated more from the same people who seem to have a problem with new triathletes and get upset about some of the crowded races.

I fail to understand how pros are a crucial segment of the population when no one can articulate a value they bring to the table other than what they do is difficult and maybe generates an article about a race that only other triathletes would read anyway.

We get that you fail to understand who pros are a crucial segment of the population. But please understand that your failure to understand is different than them not actually having importance. Their value has been articulated on this forum over, and over and over. You choose to not understand the argument. I'm fine if you don't agree with it. But if you don't understand it, it's 100% your own lack of reading comprehension.

And even if you do understand it and still disagree: how would better compensated pros hurt you or your race experience? And if you say "higher entrance fees" I'll ask you why I should pay for the bike course roads to be closed for 10 hours. Because we're all in this together, and each segment brings something unique to the sport. Just because you don't see the value, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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They pay their equal entry fee. In this case, they signed up for a race with 17 hours to finish, and now saying is it only 16:45?

___________

My guess is that before this year's Kona or atleast soon after, they will announce that you have 16:45 to finish. So ~95% of the athletes who will be racing in 2015 Kona will sign up under the knowledge that the race will be a 16:45 race.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
They pay their equal entry fee. In this case, they signed up for a race with 17 hours to finish, and now saying is it only 16:45?

___________

My guess is that before this year's Kona or atleast soon after, they will announce that you have 16:45 to finish. So ~95% of the athletes who will be racing in 2015 Kona will sign up under the knowledge that the race will be a 16:45 race.

I thought this new cutoff was for 2014. Was I wrong?

Now if it is 2015, and folks sign up knowing that, well, ....

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
I am saying participants can spend 20 minutes in transition instead of 35 and make the cut-off.
You make it 16:45 and they will dial in their performance to finish within that time. I would not be opposed of starting a 70+ wave at 6:45am as well.

I guess the same thing could be said for the female pros, who are all young and able-bodied.

Perhaps if they would HTFU, they could cut five minutes off their combined swim and bike times and not have to worry about age group men catching them before T2 if they only have a twenty-minute head start.

The most ham-handed thing about this letter from WTC is the timing. Couldn't they have waited until after Kona, or had some sort of pro meeting at Kona to hash out some of these issues?

Why decide they have to go back to a 25-minute head start for the female pros (which didn't even exist until last year) before they see whether the 20-minute gap they're getting this year is sufficient?

Frankly, this seems like a consolation prize that WTC doled out to try to get the females to forget about the fact that they're still going to be getting screwed by not having the same number of slots as the male pros. Oh, and by the way, that decision seems to have been precipitated by the male pros, who were overwhelmingly against the women getting 50 slots. Yeah, I expect that there will be some awkward moments in Kona this year. I'm sure it's not their intention, but WTC seems to be driving a wedge between the male pros, female pros, and AG athletes. Clumsy.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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For the 2015 IRONMAN World Championship, we will reinstitute a 25-minute gap between the female professional athletes and the age group men. Given operational constraints, this change will affect the other 2,000+ athletes competing for a world championship in the age groups whose race will be shortened to 16:45.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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because you are a guest of the community that you are racing in. LOL, my opinion...cut off should be 12 or 13 hours. If people want to challenge themselves with swim / bike / run they can do it on their own, unorganized anytime they want. I'd be interested in seeing exactly how the spoils of the ironman crowd are actually dispersed throughout the community. Maybe 1 out of 10 , or 1 out of 15 people actually sees the money? Maybe that's why there is the backlash in these communities that there is?


"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
For the 2015 IRONMAN World Championship, we will reinstitute a 25-minute gap between the female professional athletes and the age group men. Given operational constraints, this change will affect the other 2,000+ athletes competing for a world championship in the age groups whose race will be shortened to 16:45.

My mistake.

Still seems like WTC is screwing the older folks, but sounds like some feel everyone is getting screwed.

Sure glad I no longer have Kona as any goal I am worried about, let alone an IM ever again.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
andrewnova wrote:

I don't think he ever stated that triathlon has no need for pros, just instead that they play a much smaller role in people's decisions regarding events than people on here are giving them credit for. WTC has seemed to identify their business driver as the mop/bop AGer which I would define as the vast majority of those competing. I find it interesting that I keep reading on here about how the pros should be compensated more from the same people who seem to have a problem with new triathletes and get upset about some of the crowded races.

I fail to understand how pros are a crucial segment of the population when no one can articulate a value they bring to the table other than what they do is difficult and maybe generates an article about a race that only other triathletes would read anyway.


We get that you fail to understand who pros are a crucial segment of the population. But please understand that your failure to understand is different than them not actually having importance. Their value has been articulated on this forum over, and over and over. You choose to not understand the argument. I'm fine if you don't agree with it. But if you don't understand it, it's 100% your own lack of reading comprehension.

And even if you do understand it and still disagree: how would better compensated pros hurt you or your race experience? And if you say "higher entrance fees" I'll ask you why I should pay for the bike course roads to be closed for 10 hours. Because we're all in this together, and each segment brings something unique to the sport. Just because you don't see the value, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Thank you for proving my point about the welcoming elders of triathlon. Your responses couldn't have proven my point any better about the butthurt concerning those new to the sport. As someone who just started in triathlon I am honestly asking for examples and facts about how pros bring value to the overall race. Talking about reading comprehension, I never said better compensated pros would hurt my race experience, please read all my posts. What I have been stating is that WTC doesn't owe the professionals any additional money than what they are offering them. If the pros feel entitled to more, they need to do something about it, yet they continue to race WTC. All I keep reading is that pros are important without any supporting, documented facts.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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This may come off as an "easy" out, but to answer your question. There is no direct monetary value that the pros bring to the sport. But I will bring you some examples.

Rev3 when they came into the sport, made a conscious effort to treat the pros like rock stars, and they certainly did. Issue became not enough high level pros jumped to Rev3, but yet Rev3 apparently had the most media coverage than even IM (that was a claim that Rev3 made, not sure how it can be verified). A company called HITS came into the sport in a similar time period, and they just haven't taken off like Rev3 has. Maybe it's because Rev3 put more money into their events, maybe a combination of things. One race company added pros to their series and marketed them up, other did no such thing.

Pros just add value to a race that make it go from an A to a A+. Maybe some at the back of the race don't even recognize the advantages, maybe you do. Getting the race recognized in media is important for races and RD's. It's how you can grow a brand just like having world class service.

Look at this past weekends IM Maryland. Apparently the race company itself isn't even willing to call the 1st placed athlete the "IM Winner", because it wasn't won by an pro (or didn't have an professional field). AGers ARE what supports all forms of racing, but turning an blind eye to the pros because you don't see direct monetary involvement isn't the answer either. The sport is supported by AG'ers, that pros and others (coaches, manufactors, clothing) all live on. You can have all groups come together and some pull more than others, but both are parts that are needed for a well oiled machine to work the most effectively.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
This may come off as an "easy" out, but to answer your question. There is no direct monetary value that the pros bring to the sport. But I will bring you some examples.

Rev3 when they came into the sport, made a conscious effort to treat the pros like rock stars, and they certainly did. Issue became not enough high level pros jumped to Rev3, but yet Rev3 apparently had the most media coverage than even IM (that was a claim that Rev3 made, not sure how it can be verified). A company called HITS came into the sport in a similar time period, and they just haven't taken off like Rev3 has. Maybe it's because Rev3 put more money into
their events, maybe a combination of things. One race company added pros to their series and marketed them up, other did no such thing.

Pros just add value to a race that make it go from an A to a A+. Maybe some at the back of the race don't even recognize the advantages, maybe you do. Getting the race recognized in media is important for races and RD's. It's how you can grow a brand just like having world class service.

Look at this past weekends IM Maryland. Apparently the race company itself isn't even willing to call the 1st placed athlete the "IM Winner", because it wasn't won by an pro (or didn't have an professional field). AGers ARE what supports all forms of racing, but turning an blind eye to the pros because you don't see direct monetary involvement isn't the answer either. The sport is supported by AG'ers, that pros and others (coaches, manufactors, clothing) all live on. You can have all groups come together and some pull more than others, but both are parts that are needed for a well oiled machine to work the most effectively.

Thank you for your response. I appreciate you breaking down some facts. My argument has not been that the pros don't deserve more but instead that they can't expect etc to just give it to them, they need to prove their worth. The fact that rev3 catered to they and paid more money in some instances and the majority of pros ignored it shows me that wtc knows what they can get away with
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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I genuinely welcome you to the sport, and apologize if my post came across otherwise. I simply ask this:

Before you start publicly rallying to change a part of the sport that has existed for nearly 40 years, go back and do some reading about the history of pros in triathlon. The supporting, documented facts are all there on this forum. Maybe not quantified in an economic study, but if that's what you need you might be in the wrong place.

And, in the meantime, if you don't think better-compensated pros would hurt your race experience: Why is the issue so important to you? Can't you simply accept that for many of us fans, the lack of pro field would hurt our race experience? And the demise of the pro field would decrease our enjoyment of the sport as a whole?

Is it okay for us to enjoy something that you yourself don't enjoy, without you feeling the need to rail against it? Is it okay for me to drink Glenlivet and you to drink Glenfiddich without you trying to put Glenlivet out of business because you don't understand what value they bring to the scotch market?




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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No hurt feelings, it's the interwebs! I think we both want the same result with is for the sport of triathlon to grow and thrive. I want people to make a good living and it would be great if the pros made millions of dollars. The point I have been trying to make is that the pros can't just expect to be compensated but instead have to show their worth. My other point is that I question if the people who rail against wtc continue to keep paying for their races

I'll buy you a drink at a challenge race and we can discuss more in person
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:

My mistake.

.

Never let the facts get in the way of an anti WTC rant.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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andrewnova wrote:
I'll buy you a drink at a challenge race and we can discuss more in person

This I agree with!! :-)




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