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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
OK, so I have been in transit for the last 24 hours or so. Did the following happen yet?

  • WTC increased Kona field size to 5000 people ?
  • Did the town of Kailua get pissed off with the threat of more visitors to the island and kick WTC out yet because the world is always better with less revenue. We don't want triathlon to bring in more revenue than Kona coffee?
  • Did Challenge sign a deal with the locals yet?
  • Did all the Challenge series events worldwide sell out instantly because they now have the key to the road to Kona?
  • Did Challenge reduce the Kona cut off to 15 hours, or are they starting the 60+ folks with floodlights at 6 am and giving them all an 18 hour cutoff and big head start while forcing the young guys to suck it up and go faster like they do in Roth?
  • Did all the pros tweet to Messick that WTC sucks and they are all racing for the Challenge World Championships in Kona?
  • Did the Kailua provide the peer to Challenge for free or did they ask Felix for 20% of Roth proceeds to use the peer?
  • Did the princes over in Bahrain call Andrew and say, "OK, we'll host the WTC Ironman World's in Bahrain on the first weekend of October and post $10M prize purse".
  • While all this was going on, did Mauna Kea just erupt out of frustration covering the QueenK in Lava, forcing Challenge to take the race course up Palani to Hawaii belt road to saddle road to the new turnaround 10K up the side of Mauna Loa?



Anything else happen around here. I feel like Murphy's Law coming off winter hiatus.

Nah, we were just discussing the word "sycophant".
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ In reply to ]
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As for the shortened cutoff time for 2015 in Kona. Our opinions are going to be based upon what we perceive as sacrosanct. Is it the midnight cutoff or the 17 hours? Honestly, the race used to be be finished whenever though.

Yes, there are WTC races either less than 17 hours. And the one shot deal, IMNYC, had a short cutoff as well as I recall. But how often was the shorter time acknowledged as being at the expense of one group of athletes so that pros could have greater distance on the age group men instead of local neighborhoods etc? There are solutions as long as the race is here: go back to a 6:30 pro start. Men and women. Start everyone else later. Or just go retro and return to a mass swim start for everyone, pros and age groupers alike. Don't like getting passed by elite age group men or women? Swim faster. Or just move the finish time to 12:15 am. Let the media have their 17 hour end game shots.

As for a sacrosanct midnight time. It's not midnight thus year for age group men. They're pumpkinized at 23:50 HST. Ali'i drive doesn't swallow people starting at 12:01 am either. I'm fairly certain you can still run, walk, skip, hop and dance but not crawl on it at 12:15. So why have the midnight cutoff?

Btw, Kailua town doesn't get a penny of money from the race, the participants or their family members. There is no town government here, there are no city governments either. And the race utilizes state property, three state highways, and a couple of county roads. Any revenue goes to the state and the local businesses that people choose to patronize. There is mandatory overtime for the county police paid for by WTC but little else has a direct interaction at the county level.

Mauna Kea is extinct Dev. Mauna Loa would be covering the Queen K :p It's active too. Seriously.

On a serious note, the June 27 lava breakout is threatening the town of Pahoa. This is not an insignificant village, it's a fair sized town with even more population in the vicinity of it. On a triathlon level, Ultraman Hawaii has the day 2 bike course through much of that area. 2014's race could be "different'.


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
Last edited by: KonaCoffee: Sep 26, 14 22:31
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bryan0721] [ In reply to ]
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Bryan0721 wrote:
Best line- "I want to mention the absence of live online coverage for the Subaru IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship -- our lack of a hosted live show was a mistake, one for which I accept responsibility."

He should have also said "I want to apologize to Pete Jacobs for calling him unprofessional since he did follow the rules that I put in place. Yes, doing this in a public forum was not appropriate.".

Pissing matches in public forums is bad for both sides. Yet both sides seem willing to use them.

I believe WTC is doing things for the better. No doubt about it. But the way the message is delivered sometimes has a lot of room for improvement.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of us pay professional dues for various industry associations. We pay some $$$ to practice our professions in our country or internationally. I know it seems backwards, but by paying in, we help subsidize a framework that allows us to practice our professions under certain rules and obligations. I don't see this being that different. Rapp is correct, that the some of the stuff is pretty basic and is not that indifferent from every other industry in terms of how professionals have to behave.

Pro's pay a licensing fee to their NGB to race as a pro. The NGB is tasked by the ITU to set the standards for the industry. WTC then makes them pay another pro licensing fee to race as a WTC pro. WTC is acting more like a NGB than a race production business with some of their terms/practices/requirements.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
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Lots of us pay professional dues for various industry associations. We pay some $$$ to practice our professions in our country or internationally. I know it seems backwards, but by paying in, we help subsidize a framework that allows us to practice our professions under certain rules and obligations. I don't see this being that different. Rapp is correct, that the some of the stuff is pretty basic and is not that indifferent from every other industry in terms of how professionals have to behave.


Pro's pay a licensing fee to their NGB to race as a pro. The NGB is tasked by the ITU to set the standards for the industry. WTC then makes them pay another pro licensing fee to race as a WTC pro. WTC is acting more like a NGB than a race production business with some of their terms/practices/requirements.


I agree with you that they are acting like a quasi international governing body which they are for their own races. Definitely an overlap between what WTC and the ITU/NGBs do. In any case, it is neither here nor there. As people tell us age groupers all the time, if you don't like how WTC runs their races, there are other choices and they are a private company can do what they want. I don't really buy into the "they are a private company and can do what they want" BECAUSE they have chosen to act like an NGB in many cases. And because they do so, there should be two way accountability with pros and age groupers.

I view them more similar to the NHL who run their own game under their own rules, setting their own championships and run in parallel to the International Ice Hockey Federation which runs its own championship and is the link for Ice Hockey into the Olympics. Every other aspect of hockey outside of the NHL is run by the IIHF. The two co exist, but the NHL pretty well does whatever the heck it wants, with some minor "collaboration" so that both can make money off each other's existence. Technically, some out of competition WADA guy should be able to walk over to the home of any NHLer, and test them, but from what I recall, none of the NHL guys are in a testing pool until they are named to a national team for the Olympics or IIHF championship and shockingly no one ever tests positive anyway. At least no one from the NHL does...usually they will token nail some tier 3 minor league guy.

All this to say, yes the pros pay to play at the WTC house, but once inside the house, like any league there are some formal and informal house rules. We all have that in our companies, and we have that in our interactions with our customers and partners. We don't need to be rocket scientists to figure this out.

Also one more thing in terms of how Ironman CEO is communicating, related to Marcel's post about doing all this in public not being productive (which I agree with). Unlike cycling, football or hockey pros that are under contract to teams, WTC IM pros are really more like freelance guys who happen to pay a small fee to play in the WTC house. If you get paid $250K to ride for Saxo Tinkhoff, or $5M to play for the New York Giants, you're going to keep you mouth shut and not complain too much (publicly) about the organization. Andrew, coming from the bike racing world is used to this type of "professional response" from players. Triathlon pro situation is different. They pay $800 (or whatever the number is) to enter the WTC casino with a chance to make some up side coin, but they could just as easily leave the casino with zero. Pros in other sports are certain to make their base pay and will act publicly in unison with the organization from which they get guaranteed pay. The WTC casino house does not guarantee pay, just the chance of it, so asking for pro behavior in public will be a harder challenge than in other sports, especially if many pros don't see the casino odds being that great".

But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a cycling team of 20 members with $100K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc). From what I recall, rolled up prize money for the Tour de France is in the range of 2M Euros.

I think Andrew needs to emphasize that he is giving pros the opportunity to win races and market themselves. Why should WTC pay the pros more, when arguably, companies like Cervelo, Specialized, Saucony etc etc etc, don't have to lift a finger to create the race series/production, while they benefit so much from the work that WTC does. Look at transition in any race....how much money is there in hardware versus how much money WTC gets in entry fees ($5000 per bike vs $800 entry fee) ? Bike companies are making a lot more revenue than WTC, so are running shoe companies, so Andrew needs to turn it around on all these "partners" getting a free ride on WTC. WTC gives the pros the platform and $4M of payout. The rest, the industry can step up and deliver on. "Pros and companies, you guys go figure it out, but without our races, you have no racing going on to leverage, so we're all in it together. We give pros the platform and we give all the suppliers a market (age groupers) to sell into".

Rather than telling pros how to behave, I'd personally focus on the upside that they are offering pros. No one likes to be told how to behave, but everyone likes to hear about an opportunity. He should focus on the opportunity. It is no different than cyclists in the Tour de France...no one is talking about the prize money for a stage win, about the money for the Green or Polka dot Jersey or the payout on the Champs for the Yellow. All of this gives the riders and team a platform to negotiate with future sponsors or team management (whose revenues come from sponsors). Very few are critical of the TdF for their $2M Euro payout, which is paltry compared to the revenue that ASO rakes in.

WTC/Ironman is like the Tour de France of cycling in that respect. Heck even age groupers market themselves as Ironman podium winners all the time. This is the angle that WTC needs to push. Jordan Rapp got it a long time ago...he said something along the lines of, "I get more about being IM Canada or IM Arizona champion than 24th at Kona, so until I can contend in Kona I am not going". See, he got it that the platform was worth the most. Oh, and he also figured out how to comport himself in the market but does so with credibility. He's is transparent and can be highly critical, but does it with meat and substance behind his thoughts. Not 1 line tweets with zero context that can be taken out of hand. Same thing with Brandon Marsh. So these guys automatically get credibility, far beyond their stature that comes exclusively with speed.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Sep 27, 14 7:07
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'm just curious as to the differences between the WTC pro license and the NBG license. For example, can someone hold a WTC pro license and not a NGB? Further, I'm assuming that the WTC license gets you into any WTC race in the world, not just in one country, for no additional race fee (travel and lodging not part of the deal). Is that the case with a NGB pro card?

Honest, not challenging, questions.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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USAT pro license is a must and about $35 for the year. WTC pro license is totally optional and about $800ish per year.

WTC license only necessary if you want to do their particular events of course. Someone could certainly just do Lifetime/Challenge/Rev without a WTC license. WTC is the only race org that really charges pros to race, and the only one that requires pros to hold a "license" for their races.

Not complaining just stating
Last edited by: USPro Tri: Sep 27, 14 8:10
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:

He should have also said "I want to apologize to Pete Jacobs for calling him unprofessional since he did follow the rules that I put in place. Yes, doing this in a public forum was not appropriate.".

Pissing matches in public forums is bad for both sides. Yet both sides seem willing to use them.

I believe WTC is doing things for the better. No doubt about it. But the way the message is delivered sometimes has a lot of room for improvement.

qft


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a cycling team of 20 members with $100K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc).



I'll just change your example a little bit. Catch the difference?


But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a triathlon team of 1000 members with $2K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc. which is subsidized with the $1 Million collected from those 1000 members).

------------------------
Cornwall (Ontario) Triathlon
Last edited by: RobAllen: Sep 27, 14 9:58
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
I'm just curious as to the differences between the WTC pro license and the NBG license. For example, can someone hold a WTC pro license and not a NGB? Further, I'm assuming that the WTC license gets you into any WTC race in the world, not just in one country, for no additional race fee (travel and lodging not part of the deal). Is that the case with a NGB pro card?

Honest, not challenging, questions.

Athletes are supposed to have a NGB pro/elite license in order to be a WTC pro member. Yes, the WTC pro membership fee allows you to race any WTC race that you chose.

I don't know what a Great Britain elite license costs, as an example. For USAT it's $49/annually. WTC was $800 in 2014. That was an increase of $50 over 2013 and previous. An increase that was intended to go towards increase drug testing since several NGBs pulled long course athletes out of their drug testing pool.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
I'm just curious as to the differences between the WTC pro license and the NBG license. For example, can someone hold a WTC pro license and not a NGB? Further, I'm assuming that the WTC license gets you into any WTC race in the world, not just in one country, for no additional race fee (travel and lodging not part of the deal). Is that the case with a NGB pro card?

Honest, not challenging, questions.


Athletes are supposed to have a NGB pro/elite license in order to be a WTC pro member. Yes, the WTC pro membership fee allows you to race any WTC race that you chose.

I don't know what a Great Britain elite license costs, as an example. For USAT it's $49/annually. WTC was $800 in 2014. That was an increase of $50 over 2013 and previous. An increase that was intended to go towards increase drug testing since several NGBs pulled long course athletes out of their drug testing pool.

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?

Member of Valhalla Racing Team
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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What do you get of support from WTC?

___________

Let's be fair. You don't get anything you just described even at ITU events unless your one of the NGB athletes who's getting travel paid for (they likely have to pay and get reimbursed). Of course the top 30 athletes very likely all are being funded for X event by their federation, so that's a bit different than LC athletes.

And in LC, WTC/Rev3 non of them provide the standard that you prescribe. Rev3 did a really good job of finding homestays for almost all their pros from what I remember, and it seems like WTC pros have to do it more on their own.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So where is the platform the WTC is talking about?
No support, no streaming and hardly any media coverage. Where is the platform?

The CEO was talking about building the sport. I just do not see that not stream a so called world championship is building the sport.

But then again, my experience is from other sports and not LD triathlon so I maybe miss something.

Member of Valhalla Racing Team
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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The platform is that every IM race has been covered by ST, probably Lava, triathlon competitor, and *usually* some type of online/sketchy feed. May not be much media, but every WTC event has gotten covered by ST I'm guessing since it's inception.

Yes it's hardly any media but there is hardly any sponsors other than in sport sponsors, so what do you expect.

They stream every Kona, and even the past 70.3's to some degree, but wasn't sure why MT 70.3 wasn't shown (especially with the class of athletes they had show up).

WTC can and should do better, but there have been platforms for athletes to show their brand, WTC can't be expected to do everything. (And I'm anti WTC, I just don't think it's on WTC to put in $10mil in prize purse when no other advertising/sponsors are jumping to help).

Until media advertising improves, the pro side of the sport is up shit creek.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Halvard wrote:
In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?

I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.

___________

Per Jordan's post "WTC will provide both financial and logistical support for the volunteer efforts. Things like travel, getting posters printed, etc. WTC is willing to help with that and also to help find opportunities where the event organizer would also help in this regard. Athletes will not be expected to "foot the bill" for volunteer efforts; they are expected to give their time. "


I hope it truly will be true that they provide money and networking for the pros who "volunteer" and not just tell them the chance to network is fair trade.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [RobAllen] [ In reply to ]
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RobAllen wrote:
Quote:
But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a cycling team of 20 members with $100K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc).



I'll just change your example a little bit. Catch the difference?


But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a triathlon team of 1000 members with $2K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc. which is subsidized with the $1 Million collected from those 1000 members).

Not really Rob. There is $4M. In an ideal world, probably $2-3M goes to the top 10 athletes on each side. The other $1-2M gets spread over the next 40 because they don't have that much marketing appeal for your show but you need them around so the top guys have some people to actually beat. If not, there is no competition. Regardless, $4M rolled up is not insignificant, but as Brooks said, it's not up to WTC to increase this to $10M or for that matter $20M. The platform is there for both pros and sponsors to leverage. Sponsors are likely getting more slave labour out of pros than WTC is. Without pros wining events on their gear, the differentiation for the equipment is fairly limited. All the equipment is good and companies need associations with athletes to help differentiate their gear.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I hope it truly will be true that they provide money and networking for the pros who "volunteer" and not just tell them the chance to network is fair trade.

If by money you mean something more than a travel/poster reimbursement, then I agree with you 100%.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
the money is going the wrong way for that to be true.

the WTC is under contract to the athlete. for the $800, the WTC is responsible to provide races to race in, prize money, and fair racing through drug testing.

Rappstar wrote:
Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.


Any pro athlete who holds a WTC pro membership license is under contract. In exchange for a fixed yearly fee, each athlete is free to race as many WTC events as they wish, earn prize money, etc. In exchange, they agree to abide by a code of conduct, be available for drug testing, and some other pretty basic things you'd expect.

Not at all. You're just showing your ignorance of contract law here. There are a great many contracts where the payer agrees to a contract outlined by the payee. Club membership - like belonging to a golf club or tennis club or social club - is a prime example. You pay a fee, and you enter into a contract abiding by the club rules. HOAs are another example. There are others that don't involve membership that are also plentiful - e.g. a ski lift ticket is a contract you enter into with the resort operator. By purchasing it, you agree to certain things.

Yes, WTC is also bound by certain aspects of the contract as well - payment of prize money according to an established timeline, etc. But WTC is the membership organization here. It is more accurate to say that the athletes are under contract with WTC, rather than vice versa. Though, of course, given that it's a contract, it goes both ways.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Quote:
Lots of us pay professional dues for various industry associations. We pay some $$$ to practice our professions in our country or internationally. I know it seems backwards, but by paying in, we help subsidize a framework that allows us to practice our professions under certain rules and obligations. I don't see this being that different. Rapp is correct, that the some of the stuff is pretty basic and is not that indifferent from every other industry in terms of how professionals have to behave.


Pro's pay a licensing fee to their NGB to race as a pro. The NGB is tasked by the ITU to set the standards for the industry. WTC then makes them pay another pro licensing fee to race as a WTC pro. WTC is acting more like a NGB than a race production business with some of their terms/practices/requirements.

Desert dude is right. Professional dues are paid to governing bodies that certify competence in the field. Engineers, doctors, lawyers, architects, etc. American athletes pay usat to certify that they are fast enough to obtain an elite license, and that's a minor fee.

WTC's pro membership deal is nothing at all like a licensing fee. It's simply an annual race entry fee for a select group of people, which puts it maybe one step below the Ironman Access program. They've somehow convinced 1000 people to pay $800/year to enter an unlimited number of races, when only 100 of them will get their $800 back in prize money. Pretty darned clever marketing, and I must say I'm a little envious.




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, wtc is nothing at all like the nhl.

The nhl pays athletes an annual salary to play games. The athletes get paid whether they score goals or not.

The wtc charges athletes an annual fee to race ironmans. The athletes get paid only if they finish fast enough. The vast majority don't.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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They've somehow convinced 1000 people to pay $800/year to enter an unlimited number of races, when only 100 of them will get their $800 back in prize money. Pretty darned clever marketing, and I must say I'm a little envious
____________________

Or WTC can implement the old system where pros paid to enter races currently at $700/per race. Given they need 3-5 races to qualify for Kona assuming they are any good, that is now $2100-$3500/yr in entry fees to race Kona. With that at hand, $800 is a great deal.

If I could get a pro card I would happily pay the $800 and race two ironmans per year for $800 vs. $1400 without the card.

Numbers. You cut them to tell the yarn you want.




@rhyspencer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm clear on contract law. you're showing your ignorance on how WTC's heavy handedness is perceived (hint: heavy). It is currently NOT going both ways, hence my somewhat sarcastic/satirical comment.




Rappstar wrote:
ericM40-44 wrote:
the money is going the wrong way for that to be true.

the WTC is under contract to the athlete. for the $800, the WTC is responsible to provide races to race in, prize money, and fair racing through drug testing.

Rappstar wrote:
Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.


Any pro athlete who holds a WTC pro membership license is under contract. In exchange for a fixed yearly fee, each athlete is free to race as many WTC events as they wish, earn prize money, etc. In exchange, they agree to abide by a code of conduct, be available for drug testing, and some other pretty basic things you'd expect.


Not at all. You're just showing your ignorance of contract law here. There are a great many contracts where the payer agrees to a contract outlined by the payee. Club membership - like belonging to a golf club or tennis club or social club - is a prime example. You pay a fee, and you enter into a contract abiding by the club rules. HOAs are another example. There are others that don't involve membership that are also plentiful - e.g. a ski lift ticket is a contract you enter into with the resort operator. By purchasing it, you agree to certain things.

Yes, WTC is also bound by certain aspects of the contract as well - payment of prize money according to an established timeline, etc. But WTC is the membership organization here. It is more accurate to say that the athletes are under contract with WTC, rather than vice versa. Though, of course, given that it's a contract, it goes both ways.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan since you're closer to this than anyone else, let me ask a few questions that need to be answered imo. Since this sounds like it's going to make it into a contract of some sort with athletes, contracts are binding in both directions. With that in mind:

If WTC doesn't increase visibility like that stated in section 4 and can't/doesn't come through with some of the things stated in 3 and 5 shouldn't their be a clawback provision in the contract for the pro's?

After all they are now paying for certain enhancements.

What if WTC f*cks up again with their online video coverage like at 70.3 worlds. Shouldn't there be another clawback clause for the pro's that raced there?

What if Lava print sales decrease, again that's less exposure shouldn't there should be a clawback option for that?

My next questions revolves around measurement.

How is WTC going to measure this? With lava sales it's easy, subscriptions either go up or down, but some of the other things are not as concrete.

How are they going to measure growing the sport?

Is it growth with WTC participants, which could easily be achieved by adding races or is it growth within each countries NGB membership?

What if a NGB's memnbership decreases? That's growth failure. Clawback?

These are the tough questions that need to be asked but more importantly need to be answered. I think if pro's really think about this, your inbox could get flooded.

You guys may want to come out with a FAQ or have a global conf call addressing some things to avoid the email flood.

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Last edited by: desert dude: Sep 27, 14 13:06
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
I'm clear on contract law. you're showing your ignorance on how WTC's heavy handedness is perceived (hint: heavy). It is currently NOT going both ways, hence my somewhat sarcastic/satirical comment.




Rappstar wrote:
ericM40-44 wrote:
the money is going the wrong way for that to be true.

the WTC is under contract to the athlete. for the $800, the WTC is responsible to provide races to race in, prize money, and fair racing through drug testing.

Rappstar wrote:
Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.


Any pro athlete who holds a WTC pro membership license is under contract. In exchange for a fixed yearly fee, each athlete is free to race as many WTC events as they wish, earn prize money, etc. In exchange, they agree to abide by a code of conduct, be available for drug testing, and some other pretty basic things you'd expect.


Not at all. You're just showing your ignorance of contract law here. There are a great many contracts where the payer agrees to a contract outlined by the payee. Club membership - like belonging to a golf club or tennis club or social club - is a prime example. You pay a fee, and you enter into a contract abiding by the club rules. HOAs are another example. There are others that don't involve membership that are also plentiful - e.g. a ski lift ticket is a contract you enter into with the resort operator. By purchasing it, you agree to certain things.

Yes, WTC is also bound by certain aspects of the contract as well - payment of prize money according to an established timeline, etc. But WTC is the membership organization here. It is more accurate to say that the athletes are under contract with WTC, rather than vice versa. Though, of course, given that it's a contract, it goes both ways.

I'm well aware of how it seems to be perceived, at least by some. But - as others in this thread have said, WTC puts on the races, pays out $5M in prize money, organized the first ever private-organization WADA-certfied drug testing program, etc. They organize the series.

While the differences between organized leagues - where players are employees and are paid a salary - and Ironman is obvious, the idea of a code of conduct - that also covers public discourse - is the norm in other sports much more similar to the Ironman - like golf. Ironman is, in many ways, surprisingly open as compared with the PGA: http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/...ions-arise-from.html

Anyway, per your comment on twitter, my "purpose" as an ambassador is:
- to make sure ANY athlete's concerns are raised
- to make sure ANY athlete's opinions are voiced
- to communicate the decision making process to athletes to the best of my ability.

I'm sure there are those who will see me as nothing more than a shill or a mouthpiece. I can't help that. But I think I've got pretty good moral checks both internally and externally. I guess I can live with that. I'm sorry if you don't agree.

I think this thread makes it pretty clear why WTC instituted the social media policy they have. I don't think my contributions here have made any difference at all. Unfortunately.


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