My how times have changed. I can remembered being laughed at back in the 2011/12 timeframe when I got my first pair of Bondi's. I've been a happy Hoka runner ever since.

Dave,

Thanks for this.

Two things:

1) Hoka's partnership with IM and the additional marketing and promotion they do in the sport of triathlon have really helped sales of their shoes in the triathlon market. As a marketer, this is what you want to see happen. It's all working well! Step on the marketing gas pedal in a market, see sales and market share grow.

2) Nike has been successful recently in triathlon for totally different reasons. They do NO direct marketing or promotion in the triathlon market - but doing MASSIVE marketing elsewhere - Kipchoge et al. However, in the space of a year they have REALLY increased sales and market share in triathlon with one shoe - the Vaporfly (4% and the newer Next %). From the get-go Nike made the bold and audacious claim that these shoes would make you 4% more efficient (most people read that as "faster")*. Independent research actually backed that up that Nike was not too far off on these claims!

*This proves my long held theory that with triathletes, all you have to do is tell them something will make them X% "faster" - and you have their very attentive ear, and are well on your way to a closed deal and a sale!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It would be nice to compare 2019 running times of people who got seduced successfully by Nike's marketing machine with their pre-seduction time on same course. Would we see an average better marathon time?
Sam

far too many variables as i'm sure you know but i assume you are just being ornery.

When did Hoka start marketing to triathletes? With very cursory googling my guess would be Hoka have had a pretty steady share for the last 4 years or so. If that rise to the 2016 and current day share coincides with marketing directly to Tri then that would back you up. If the marketing follows that growth then maybe it's a slightly different story.

I'm not disagreeing just interested which it is. I don't remember seeing them being advertised when I first grabbed a pair on sale. It was more internet word of mouth, notably here, that convinced me to try them. The other thing is for a lot of people with chronic running pains they work. So it's not like is they marketed welly boots to triathletes then 26% of us would be trotting away from T2 in them.

The other thing about Nike is they found a way to put carbon fiber in them. Triathletes love that stuff. Wet suits and nutrition next.

It would be nice to compare 2019 running times of people who got seduced successfully by Nike's marketing machine with their pre-seduction time on same course. Would we see an average better marathon time?


I think that I saw somewhere in the last year some interesting Strava data, that again backed up the Nike claims - on the whole, while wearing Nike Vaporflys, people were running slightly faster!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

When did Hoka start marketing to triathletes?


When they started their partnership with IRONMAN. When they started taking out ads in Triathlete Magazine. When the shoes started to be talked about here and on other triathlon forums.

Perhaps it did not influence YOUR purchase, but I'm sure all of the above and more influenced the Hoka purchases of many other triathletes.

The other thing is for a lot of people with chronic running pains they work.

Correct! The Hoka's are the shoe for many people. A good friend of mine is kind of the chiropractor to the Stars and many other active runners and triathletes in a city that has a lot of runners and triathletes. He told me ounce, " My treatments solve half of the problems of the athletes who come and see me and the Hoka's that I tell them to run in solve the other half"! :-)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I'm sure you are right. I'm just genuinely interested in when that partnership and those ads started. Add those dates and then graph the share of brands over the same time - in theory, I'm not suggesting you do it - and that would make the case. Maybe people have the timeline clear in their heads and it's just me not noticing that kind of stuff, at least consciously.

When did Hoka start marketing to triathletes?//

The real partnership started the day they gave dan his first pair, so a lot more than 4 years ago. Not to boast for him, but pretty much Dan single handily threw the gas on the fire of the Bondi in the very beginning, before they were sold to Deckers. So the marketing to triathletes started a very long time ago, back when they sold 2 million a year worth of shoes, now selling about 400 million. Remember this is a triathlon website, the biggest and most frequented in the world, so I would say this is marketing to triathletes here, no??

So do these numbers change your guess on Kona at all? I would think the Nike craze is more US centric right now, so maybe Hoka took the Kona count once again? Maybe for the last time if they dont get some good press and word of mouth on their new carbon shoe..

Monty,

No, that does not change my thoughts on Kona. The Kona athlete is different than the Arizona athlete. I would guess most maybe even 65% of the qualifiers in Arizona were wearing Nike. My buddy who crushed the 50-54 age group going 9:29 with the fastest run ran in the Vapor Fly Next%. He passed on the slot. As far as Hoka doing the count. No, they don’t do it. Ironman does it but I believe brand level only and provides it as a sales tool for future sponsorship work. Also remember Arizona is US centric. Although we like to think the US drives everything it doesn’t. My info on Kona includes what I have seen globally this year. It also includes reports on Kona from my trusted shoe friends. They all reported the same thing, Nike crushed and I took a very conservative approach. If I am wrong it’s because Nike is larger.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

You are absolutely right. I was being sloppy. Not following these things too carefully I'd kind of assumed the internet word of mouth/ influencer side of marketing had happened more earlier and the more direct ad and sponsorship based side was more recent. But I'm sure they overlap and it's never entirely one or the other. So, yeah, I didn't really mean when did zero marketing to current strategy happen. I meant when did they change the emphasis to what it is now. My guess would be it was the stuff like how Dan was involved, talked about in articles still here, was what largely built that brand loyalty of triathletes. And it would be interesting to plot that change of strategy to the market share over time.

https://www.nytimes.com/...fly-shoe-strava.html

Stand alone marathon, before and after on the same course, relative to other shoes. Vaporfly comes out on top.

Dave, are you aware of any trials comparing the time savings per mile between the 4% and the Pegasus turbo. Like runner x ran a 6:00 min mile in the turbo and ran a 5:50 mile in the 4% with the same effort.

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Let food be thy medicine...

Thanks for the link!
Sam

Why would I? Just looking for some non-anecdotal data. If a bike or wheel manufacturer makes a claim, this forum is super sceptical. I think the same scepticism should be in place for other products.
I assume your toes are a tad too long ;-)
Sam

The front end of the field was almost all 4s & Next. It was crazy.

That’s the analysis I want. FOP vs M/BOP People walking A LOT want comfortable vs performance.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

The guy first off the bike who won overall age group race was in the Saucony Liberty. It’s not too difficult to figure out. FOP was wearing VP and VPN, Carbon X, Kinvara,Mach as it transitions to MOP the Clifton reigns supreme, but VP, VPN and Carbon X are still large, as it goes to BOP the Clifton is still there as well as the Nike shoes but the Bondi, Kayano, Adrenaline, Ghost, Glycerin and others show up.

It’s no secret - The Vapor Fly Next % has over reached. We’ve never had a racing flat reach so far back into a field of racers. There are some in the front and many in the back who should not be in the shoe because of functional needs yet they still believe. When Nike does their Marketing right they pull everyone along.

The Carbon X has some of that too. There are athletes who simply crush that shoe. I’m not sure if it’s the athlete or just a worn out broken down shoe. I’ll have to see more of it happening to determine. On the Nike it’s definitely the athlete who’s foot is not flowing with the shoe.

Your question about comfort over performance and walking is why I wrote that Arizona was a better shoe analysis over Kona. Although Nike and Hoka One One (Carbon X) are benefiting from all the press about running shoes right now the vast majority of people who run buy for comfort. Just look at the top 10 here vs Kona. The Brooks Ghost is the #1 shoe in running specifically in the USA. It shows up in the top 10 in Arizona but barely registers in Kona.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Yes and that’s the difference between Pbax/react foam and Pbax/Carbon Plate. The reason why the Vapor Fly Next% is so “fast”, is the combination of the foam and plate as well as stack height. Take the plate away and the foam is still quite fast. It’s by far the best foam in running. The Pegasus Turbo has it, the Reebok Float Ride, Float Ride Fast and Float Ride Pro have it and those three shoes feel alive when you run in them. The Saucony Endorphin Pro (Corbin ran in them) is pbax (Out in April) and you’ll begin to see more brands using that foam.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Just a question - I'm trying to learn here - I got to running 9:25 ish miles for all of my long runs during the build to IM Cozumel. Most of those long runs were done on Sundays after a 80 -100 mile rides on Saturdays. 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 miles followed by 6-8 miles on Mondays.

They seemed fine and no pain in my legs or feet - just nice solid training.

At IM Coz my feet on the run were very sore and felt like someone had beat them with a rolling pin when I walked. They did not hurt when I ran - but my legs were not going to let me run a lot.

(one thing very different at the race: I was pouring water on myself all day on the bike and run and my feet were like prunes at the end of the race) - no water pouring like this in training.

I have been rotating 3 pair of Salming D5's. 60 years old - 168 Lbs.

I purchased a new pair of Hoka Carbon X before the race but did not want to try them (even for training) before the race. They feel strange but I have not really given them a chance only running 1/2 mile out of curiosity.

This new foam/plte/construction seems to be an option.

I'm beginning to plan for 2020 and would like to build a running plan with new shoes - any thoughts?

Thanks

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

So do you have any idea what the delta is between the two shoes?

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Let food be thy medicine...

I've followed the forums for a while but decided to finally register to provide my own experience on this topic. IMAZ was my first full distance race. Being able to "run" the marathon is what scared me the most. I have run 5 stand alone marathons previously, and know the pain and suffering of the last 10K. I was really worried how bad this pain would be on the back half of the marathon after a long day. I'm not a speed demon, in AZ I had a solid MOP performance with a 13:18 finish.

I only learned about the carbon plate shoes by chance about a month before the race, as I had always been comfortable in my NB shoes and didn't see a need for change. I ended up ordering a pair of Nike Next%, and was able to get in an 8 mile and 13 mile training run before the race. For those that have tried these type of shoes, running in them feels very different, and I took a chance and decided to race in them based upon my limited training runs. Why I wanted to provide the feedback here is the reason I even tried these shoes. My goal was not speed, but rather pain management and especially recovery. I read a lot of reviews from 40+ runners about improvements in pain during their marathon and even more about better recovery afterward.

On Sunday, I had a (for me) great run. My best case scenario plan going in was to run everything except the aid stations, giving myself time to pump in the fluids and food I know I would need, and only stop for Special Needs and portas as needed. I was able to nail that plan and it felt great. On the second loop almost no one was consistently running, and ~75% appeared to be in full walk mode. I was hoping to find someone with the same goal to run with, but never found anyone.

I ended up finishing the run in 4:51, under my best goal time of 5hr flat, and that was with a few porta stops more I expected I ate and drank too much. What surprised me was the pain levels. The marathon hurt and hurt a lot as they always do, but I really felt like it didn't hurt as much as usual, and not to the same level in my calf and hamstrings. Was this the results of the shoes, or solid training? I don't know. Was my ability to run when most were walking due to the shoes, or conservative pacing on the bike? I don't know. I do think the shoes provided a benefit.

What is even more surprising to me is the recovery. Monday I was sore, but mostly in my quads. My hamstrings and calves didn't hurt nearly to the level I expected. All my friends told me day two would be the worst, but by Tuesday all my pain levels were subsiding and I sat through 5 hours on a plane with no issues. Was this easier than expected recovery the result of the shoes, or better training? I don't know. What I do know based upon these experiences is that I am convert to the shoes. I don't think it is hype, and will plan to use them (or similar shoes) for all my future races.

As Dave has already answered, it is global but I thought I'd share that the vaporfly single-handedly rocketed Nike to the top of Japan's running shoe market share, I imagine the same has happened in most developed/targeted markets. One example of this, and perhaps part of the cause Nike took over was the prevalence of their 4% at the Ekidens

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I've followed the forums for a while but decided to finally register to provide my own experience on this topic. //

Welcome aboard Ryan, and good job on your race. My only comment would be are you comparing your Ironman marathon to your 5 stand alone ones? Because if this is the comparison, you can pretty much throw that out the window. Most people that run the entire ironman race, will likely be about 1 1/2 to 2 minutes or so slower per mile, so you are not getting anywhere near the pounding you get in stand alone. So the recovery from an ironman as compared to a marathon, is night and day. I remember my stand alone races, they were the most brutal things I ever did, and too the longest to recover from. Ironman's just make you body tired, with some soreness, marathons make you body hurt, and it can last a week or more..


But one thing for sure, the shoes didnt hurt you, so I would take that positive away from the race. Maybe run your next stand alone in them and then you will have a fair comparison as to how you feel after..