-Looking forward to a new Iraq free from oppression and tyranny for their own people to govern as they see fit. That would be a wonderful reality for the entire world. The sooner and safer the better. Send positive energy over there for our guys and also for all those poor people in Iraq uprooted from their daily lives.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"If patriotism has to precipitate us into dishonor, if there is no precipice of inhumanity over which nations and men will not throw themselves, then, why in fact do we go to so much trouble to become, or to remain, human?" -Jean-Paul Sarte.

This "war" is illegal. It is an act of tyranny, pure and simple. Just look at the NY Times today and read about all the protests happening all over the world right now. The USA is now isolated and hated. I love this country and this city (NYC) but I cannot sit silently while we are being lead into a dark and chaotic future whose end is uncertain at best. There are better ways to "liberate" the poor people of Iraq than by simply bombing them.

Join protests in your area by going to: Moveon.org

over whether or not it was right or wrong. Personally I think it's wrong but as they decided to go they should make it short, sharp and as painless as possible......

It is devistating to think about the poor innnocent people who are going to be exposed to the conflict in Iraq. It hurts my heart to think about the reality and magnitude of of this whole war. Especially the effects on the good hardworking people in Iraq, who have been supressed for so long. I'm sure it is freighntning to them and my prayers go out to them. The innocent.

But the fact is we should all come together and wish for a fast effective campaign. Even if we don't agree on war, let's all agree on support for the decision to remove the evil regime. All protesters should be removed from the country and shacked up in Iraq in the oil fields as far as I am concerned. Protesting is a colossal wasite of time where a bunch of low lifes, demonstrate "instability" of US interest. It only damages our casue. Yeah, it's your right to disagree, but protesting in this case WON'T do jack! Did protesting stop the hijackers from smashing into the world trade center? NO. Is protesting going stop this war from happening, NO. Is protesting going to stop terrorists from using chemical or biological, radioactive weapons, NO. Hello...It's a different day and age. I have a job and a life. I will not protest against my country. I support my country, even if I don't agree totally with war. We all should join energy and support the campaign for the end result of democracy. SO instead of protesting, why don't you try using your energy to send a prayers out to the innocent and wish our troops a safe and quick return? Take your protesting somewhere else.

>>Protesting is a colossal wasite of time where a bunch of low lifes, demonstrate "instability" of US interest. It only damages our casue. Yeah, it's your right to disagree, but protesting in this case WON'T do jack!<<

Amen Graz! I live in San Francisco, where many people's main form of exercise is protesting something or the other. But, what has happened is that intermingled with a bunch of peaceniks are a subset of anarchists, who stick around after the protest and destroy property and cause violence. Yeah, that makes your protest look real good.

Me, I'll stay home and say a little prayer for my buddy Tri-Turtle who is in Kuwait right now (and has been since Thanksgiving).

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

The Pro war protest chants by Son of Bun



"ONe, Two, Three Four!!! Why can't we get on with this war!?!"

"Five, Six, Seven, Eight!!! KIlling Saddam would be great!!!"

"Hat, coat, shirt, pants!!! We don't need approval from France*!!!"

"Up! Down! IN! OUT! Screw the UN and the Krauts*!!!"

What a little tyrranical fingerpuppet! He definitely has Napoleon complex, being all of 8 cm tall.



*Please note that the references to France and Germany are meant in jest. It better be, with names like Schookmann and the root of my last name, Rogers (from French nobility) in my background, I would be remiss to have anything against the French or Germans.

Just look at in prespective with a sense of humour and a grain of salt. Bunnyman loves all people.

I disagree with whats going on but as it is happening it should happen swiftly with a minimum of casualties and damage. On that we agree.

Protesters however have every right to make their point and it has certainly been effective in the past (womens vote and desegregation) I dont think it will be effective here but I suspect that has as much to do with the current government and the change in the media over the last couple of years.

By vehemently dismissing the right to protest in a democracy you have made yourself a tyrant. This "war" is not an isolated event in a far away country. This is not Panama, this is something much bigger, much scarier, and it will directly affect all of us, especially New Yorkers like myself. If this were a war of liberation, then why haven't we liberated the dozens of other countries who are ruled by far worse tyrants? One word: Oil. I will execise my right to protest, and you certainly shall exercise your right to disagree. That's what is great about America.

In the meantime, I'll be training hard for the NYC Triathlon in August, and protesting.

Peace.

Andrew-

Yeah, agreed, but the issue isn't about having the right to protest. We already know they have the right to protest. That's plain and simple. What I'd like to know is the real motive bedhind the protest? Clearly, it's not going to stop a war.

How is it illegal? and if we have over 30 countries in our collation--then how are we isolated?

If after 12 years of failed negotiations with Sadaam, and many failed attempts to get him out, how long should we wait? how long should we allow him to kill and torture people. How long before he gives weapons to terroists?

One interesting note--Iraq says we have no scuds!--well what did the fire at our Marines this morining? I thought the inspectors were working?

Reporting news is not what the times does or probably any newspaper anymore--stuff seems to opinionated now. Like CBS the other night saying the president is wrong--their job is to report not give opinions.

errors........

Countries signed on: US, UK, AUS and ESP

Sadaam might be some pisspot dictator but he is not stupid, up until now he knew that selling weapons to terrorists would make him Target 1 in the US's eyes. Now it does not make any difference but to be honest I am more concerned about the lost and missing weapons in Russia than anything that Sadaam might or might not have.

As to the humanity issue, please no one is that stupid. You think we are there to rescue and free the people? Funny how we dont have a problem with China's one child rule or North Korea starving their people.

Depends who said what on CBS but Reporters are allowed to give editorials or op ed pieces even on CBS.

Tripoet, one thing that is great about a democratic republic, such as ours, is that you will have your chance to vote into office the mollifier of world anger and great New Yorker, Arkansan ,etc., Pres. Hillary.

Bob Sigerson

Matt,

Could you name them and describe what is the participation of them in the war ?

I saw some names....but to be true I didn't even heard before half of those names.....

If 30 countries are favor of this stupid war.... I bet there more than 100 against.... and even in those 30 maybe the entire population are againt the was... for example UK !!!

I don't what kind of info the US people are receiveing about the reaction of the entire world... but just today coming to my office I saw three groups making some kind of protest.....

This is not question of Oil....this is a question of extremely poor people trying to survive in a middle of hell....

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Luiz Eng

People who use the "oil" assertion in the case of this war never explain what they mean by that. -- are you saying we intend to "take over" the Iraqi oil supply? Or what? It's a meaningless argument that's easy to throw around.

It is also a fallacy to assert that if we decide to deal with one tyrannical government, that we must deal with all of them. This of course would be impossible and impractical. As in the rest of life, our government must prioritize, and our action against the Iraqi government is occurring in the context of the attacks on 9/11.

This war is not "illegal" -- as a sovereign government, we have full and proper authority to declare and wage war if we deem it necessary. We do not, nor have we ever needed the permission of the UN to do this. It is clear that our government undertook this operatiuon only with the gravest consideration, after repeated attempts at diplomacy and international cooperation.

Diplomacy is a two-way street, and every possible overture was made to Iraq for the last six months to coerce their government to comply with UN Resolution 1441. From the beginning it has been clear that Hussein would never cooperate, and has been wasting time with a game of smoke and mirrors.

Luiz, How are things in Brazil?

First off I hate that we are even having this discussion. The world should learn to live together more. We are all using this planet.

I just hear on the radio that we actually have 40 countries with us in some degree or another. wheter its money, bases or using air space. They said that all of the countries that supported us in 91 except Germany. I'll have to look and find where I saw that list.

I just wish this all would be over with and let our econonmy get back to somewhat normal levels, because that will only help the rest of the world. Plus its cutting into my race budget.

Have you been racing already this year?

Iraq sits on the second largest oil reserves in the world producing about 1.5mb / day. The potential is up to 5-6 mb / day within 5 years. All of the governements involved have stated that these reserves will pay for the rebuilding of Iraq. I think we can also safely assume that this would make the countries involved players in the oil market on the supply side as well post war. I think we can safely assume that if the government that the US puts in is friendly towards them, that production in Iraq will be dictated more by washington than Baghdaad and that US investment in the country will increase exponentially.

You are right about not having to go after all tyrannical leaders so my question is why when you have a complete loon that has Nukes that can reach SD, who treats his own people just as well as SH and who really is not open to any sort of negotiation other than with the US, who has launched missiles over Japan and towards China why do you happen to go after the lesser of 2 evils in SH who cant even launch a "rea" missile from Baghdad to Riahd?

".........action against the Iraqi government is occurring in the context of the attacks on 9/11. "

Uhmmm, have to ask why? thats as weak as this whole free the people thing. If you want to go after the country that financed 9/11 should'nt that be SA? especially given that 19 of 21 of the hijackers were from there. In fact to date regardless of all of the other BS that has been thrown around about this, no link between 9/11 and SH has been made. All that has been said is that in case he might have weapons or in the future MAY get weapons we are going to take him out now. NK has weapons and will use them but we are running around the desert looking for something that may or may not exist.

Actually based on your legal argument Sadaam's invasion of Kuwait was just as legal, he is a sovereign country and if he deems it necessary to go and invade Kuwait he can do so. Your argument is absurd, Iraq and the US are both members of the UN.

The 191 countries that members of the UN are bound by international law. One of the binding agreements of that law is that any action taken must be agreed upon by the members. They dont all have to take part but the members of the security council must agree. There was no agreement, they are certainly on shakey legal ground but a case can be made but your argument is completely ridiculous and not founded in fact or precedent. Do you even know what the UN is? or why Sadaams invasion was illegal and why it can be argued that the US's is? Sovereign governments can not just go invade a country.

Dont disagree that SH has been blowing smoke but thats about the only thing in your post that is legit.

Has the security council ever agreed to allow a country to invade another? Not many countries beside the US has gone first to the UN. We did not even go to the UN 5-6 years ago. France, Germany, Russia, Iraq never went to the security council before they attacked another country. If the UN is revelant then why has Sadaam been able to amass weapons over the last 12 years. They did nothing to prevent him. Pime example--Sadaam says we have no scuds but he launched them at our marines in Kuwait this moring. That raises the question of what else he has.

1441 said he must disclose his wepons which means he must bring them to the UN and have them inspected. That did not mean the inspectors or investigators had to go find them. How does the UN inforce its resolutions--well it doesn't because it hasn't done it the last 14 of them.

and Russia invaded without provocation post WWII. Russia I can think of one occasion but who have France and Germany invaded?

Going to the UN and being rejected is no different than not going at all. That is a ridiculous argument, its like telling a policeman you are going to steal a car or simply stealing it. If you go ahead and do it, it does not make any difference if you tell someone about it, it does not make it more right.

I dont think that there is any doubt that the UN is relevant unless you think it is only going to be US tax dollars paying for the rebuilding of Iraq. Almost everyone agrees that the UN will play a huge role once this debacle is over with. Can you not see it?

This thread is exactly what make the United States one of the greatest countries in the world. You have BOTH sides, and those on the fence that are FREELY able to express their opinions as much as they want to, without fear of execution in the town square.

This FREEDOM to disagree with everyone else and still be able to wake up the next morning without being hunted down by the government is not without cost. It's cost untold numbers of lives. FREEDOM is not cheap, never has been, never will be. The US has paid this price over and over.

All the wishing in the world won't remove a dictator that practices gassing ethnic groups in his own country, executing those suspected of being against him (even family members), continually stating he is abiding by the "rules" but obviously isn't (see the SCUD missile launch into Kuwait yesterday for an example). He doesn't play by international "rules", so those rules have little or no effect on what he does.

Is he dangerous? Yes, to everyone that doesn't agree with him, he is Deadly dangerous. (Unlike in a free country, where people disagree all they want.) People like this don't allow the utopian views of humanity to be realized, it takes nothing other than removal. In Utopia, this could be done without bloodshed, peaceably. It Ain't Utopia out there, folks, as much as we wish it were. IF he has to be removed, and that is what has been decided...right or wrong, I'm with those that say do it as quickly as possible with as little damage to others as is possible...but, that's a bit of Utopia creeping in again, isn't it?

Please, everyone go about discussing their views and opinions, you are (thanks partly to the many lives lost to defend freedom) FREE to do so. Just remember to listen to the other side, you'll learn most when listening.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Finally something interesting on this thread !!!! RACES !!!!!!!

I did two races already this year... 1 OLY which I almost didn't finish... I did a great swim and bike but I couldn't run ... I almost DNF.... but finished anyway... The other one was a sprint....I just did race to get some speed for the 1/2 Iron that I'm going to do on April 13th.. But I got a really good surprise....It was my best sprint distance race ever !!!!

The weather now is getting better because our summer ( that is finishing today !!! ) was really HOT !!!

I'm going to stop training on march 28th for a one week vacation and to start the taper for my first 1/2 Iron race...

PEACE AND HEALTHY TO EVERYBODY....

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Luiz Eng

IT'S THE OIL !!

Russia and France have billion dollar deals with Saddam to develop oil fields. As part of the deal they also get reduced prices and the right , as Russia is doing now, to act as a broker in the current "Oil for Food" deals. The Russian and French were hoping for lifting of UN sanctions so that they could broker Iraqi oil on the open market, including the 4% of US oil that currently comes from Iraqi. US oil companies have taken advantage by raising gas and diesel (really a cheaper product than gas) prices. Geo. and Dick will say NOTHING about $3.00 a gallon even thought Brent prices per barrel have fallen by 10% in the last week (reflected at the pump??). Look for higher prices on everything that travels by truck.

Oh, I almost forgot, look for a representative democracy in Iraq right after the one in Afghanistan. Let's just hope that American lives are not lost so that the result of a democratic election in Iraq can be the election of a Muslim Fundamentalist gov't.

Oh, I almost forgot, look for a representative democracy in Iraq right after the one in Afghanistan. Let's just hope that American lives are not lost so that the result of a democratic election in Iraq can be the election of a Muslim Fundamentalist gov't.


Well if that happens we will simply change the government again.........look out Iran and NK.

Interesting fact, 50% of the population of Iran is under 25, dont know if it is true but thats quite astonishing if it is.

AS long as the people of these Middle-eastern countries are ruled by the Mullah (I hope I'm getting it right...I'm talking about the fanatical religious leaders), there will be continuing oppression of ALL women in these societies (they aren't even allowed to drive in some of the countries...let's not start joking about how that isn't such a bad idea...oops, I already did it!), and things won't change much. Can you imagine how the US would be if the ________ (fill in the blank) ultra-religious group ran everything? That's one of the reasons the US was started wasn't it, to get away from religious persecution?

If these countries are really very young (50% of the population under 25), and if they become educated, (education of women is something many of these extremist groups do not allow...TOO DANGEROUS), they will rise up and revolt against the religious leaders, and they won't stand for the US or any other outside government to rule them. THAT's the way it should be. THAT's what I hope happens.

If the current Iraqi government is removed and the religious extemists don't take over, Iraqi may indeed become free. Then Iranians, and other similarly oppressed people, might get the idea that the religious leaders are in their religious positions for their own power trips. (It's the same as the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Bible. The Catholic church can be accused of it, too...not allowing mass to be held in any language but Latin was a way to keep information mainly to the educated religious elite, that requirement was dropped in the 1960's I think.) BUT, it's mighty hard to get out from under the religious beliefs you were taught as a child...when you've been raised Catholic, you tend to stay Catholic, same as Baptist, Islamic, Seventh Day Adventist, etc.

Whether you are for it or against it, the war has begun. It will not stop until the Iraqi government is gone, and many innocent people will be dead, homeless, mangled, angry and simply lost. The ultimate hope is that there will be many more people freed from oppression, hopeful for the first time in their lives, excited to make a new life...a free life, and thankful that their previous government no longer squashes them every day of their lives. A hopeful Utopian view, I know. But, it is all I can do at this time. Hope.

Oh, and race. Hope and race. First one on Saturday. Maybe we'll have the Inaugural Bagdad Triathlon in about 5 years, and women could actually wear their triathlon suits! It would be progress if the women could even be allowed to watch the event.

No more political posts for me.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

The US govt has always made it clear that we are attacking Saddam Hussein in order to enforce a UN resolution that the UN won't enforce itself. The point has been reached when diplomatic means to enforce the resolution have proven futile. We made our intentions and objectives clear from the beginning. THe UN Security Council agreed that "serious consequences" would result from Hussein's failure to comply with 1441.

Hussein has weapons that can be utilized by terror cells. He has declared himself the hero of the Islamic world. In the context of the hostility of Islamic terror groups toward the United States (exemplified by 9/11), and in light of Hussein's refusal to disarm, as required by the UN, it behooves the US govt to take an interest in disarming his government.

The US govt was criticized in many quarters for its lack of pre-emptive or preventative action before the 9/11 attacks. Now the US is taking flack for doing exactly that, in light of possible future terror attacks. Any pre-emptory action we could have taken before 9/11 would have seemed reckless and out of context to international observers. We are in the same boat now.

We are trying to dismantle the supply chain of the Islamic terror network. Hussein being the wild card that he is, there is no way we can ignore him, especially in light of his non-compliance with 1441.

Yes, Saudi Arabia has a significant role in the terror supply/support chain. But they are not under UN sanction, nor have they been required to disarm, as Iraq has. Therefore an attack on them in the manner we are attacking Iraq would be absurd. Different problems have to be dealt with in different ways, and I think we will addres the SA problem at some point, in some fashion.