It's already part of the announcement that Russian athletes who can prove they have been part of normal drug testing can take part under the neutral flag.

So what will it take for Kenya to be banned, the country is too disorganized to control it on a Gov. level, but its a shit show with bag testing protocols!

I agree about Kenya but it's a different conversation. Russia had state-sponsored doping, with clear evidence that the Sports Minister (and by extension, Putin) had knowledge and/or encouraged it. Kenya has pockets of individuals & groups that unfortunately take competitive spirit too far. Ultimately it should be up to WADA to control that though!

^^^^^This. Omission vs. Comission


Kenya also impacts a small slice of the Olympic sports, whereas Russia was contaminating everything from Hockey to Gymnastics.

Personally, it's a shame that a lot of these dopers will still get to compete under a neutral flag....and in events like the TdF.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

 I’m getting real tired of people blaming Russia for things that Ukraine secretly did.

Beautiful!

What is funny is that they can still compete in next year's European championship football (some call it soccer) because that is not an international event. Strictly speaking it is not international because it is limited to 1 continent I suppose. Us Belgians will just have to kick them out of that tournament.

The problem likely is that one organization can't have enough oversight.....go look at Jamaica's testing of Bolt. They would go almost 8-9 months without reporting tests in track and field.

And you also have to realize IOC has some blood of their own in this. Go look at what the IOC accepted to have the NBA players in their games and make all that bank off their presence. The NBA players are off limits to WADA testing procedures I believe until 4-6 months before the olympic games.

It's all a "what is your breaking point" essentially. Russia just seems to have done it too much in our face with no care in the world, so they finally had to be ousted.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Isn't that why the governing body of each sport, national body, and WADA are supposed to all work in tandem to ensure that doping violations don't occur (or are at least kept to a minimum & are dealt with swiftly) - I'm aware that it's probably not so black and white but at it's core that's basically the premise right?

I guess I'm slightly confused as to how something this bad happened essentially under the noses of the world, and wouldn't have been discovered without the Icarus documentary...

Honest question, but how do they go about proving? Are there going to be a lot of clean athletes that are screwed because they didn't have as many historical tests? Or did they just have to regularly make sure they get tested outside of Russia?

My point more is that every level has its own agenda.

WADA is basically as neutral as it comes but must rely on each federation to also hold its end up. So your saying that US officials have to oversee US athletes and Russian officials oversee Russian athletes and then you can understand why Kenya hardly ever drug tested or why Bolt went almost 9 months without a single Jamaican authorized test. It’s an whole confluence of conflict of interests.

Didn’t we already go through this with Russian before Rio? They have been outed so many times I can’t keep track of it anymore.

So what I’m suggesting is that at its core we should all do the right things, but the way it’s managed it’s rip for being used and abused. It’s essentially the “honor” system for how it’s suppose to work. So you mean to tell me some countries who have to oversee their own doping program, fudge it? Color me shocked.

So again WADA can’t manage it on their own it’s just too massive, thus why they require the need of federation agencies and thus the conflict of interest enters. So WADA only is as good as its basic sub contractors (federations themselves).


ETA: so only *now* after all the evidence against Russia are the rest of the federations and wada giving Russia anything more than a slap on the wrist *finally*.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

As I understand it the Russian anti-doping agency is the guilty party. If an athlete has been resident in Russia they have probably only been tested by a corrupt agency then there is no way to determine their individual status and they are the ones who cannot compete. But if an athlete has lived abroad and has a full history of being tested by that non-Russian agency then they are as clean as any other athlete covered by that agency.

An example is Darya Klishina and her wiki page explains it.

Again, how does that then work? We've known for hundreds of years that an 'honor' system doesn't work as individuals will abuse the system, as you rightly said...

Why don't officials from one country police athletes from another country? Seems like a pretty easy way to solve that core problem (and again, probably not so black/white)

And yes, finally. It's good to see them not being allowed to compete!

Because it wouldn’t financially work. Your going to pay a guy from Switzerland to travel to Australia to drug test a guy? Just have a guy in Australia do it.

That’s what we have now and why sport federations have to go under wada agreement. It’s why a sport like nba can do it’s own “in house” testing and regs why swimming/track/ etc fall under “olympic regs” ie- wada.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Your post is correct. That said, no one wants to do anything more than put on a little show. It would out all of the federations if they cared. My country (and all of Europe), The Americas, Africa, Asia, Middle East, etc. All either know they aren't effective at catching those at the top or look the other way...or both.

So the current model of testing which we've established doesn't work?

This isn't only a testing problem. This is mostly a large cultural problem/issue. They've been raised to believe that doping is normal, actually beneficial to them, and told to do it on a regular basis. It's a completely different cultural systems that doesn't care and thinks EVERYONE ELSE is not normal for using these methods.

No by enlarge it works. It’s the best “round peg into square hole” that we can come up with. As the last poster said we are dealing with culture/finance/morals that comes in all different sizes and greats all kinds of issues. Does Kenya who’s by and large a “2nd” world country going to have the same value system that a France or Aus or US is going to have? Do they even have the structure and financial accountability to make it work?

So the current wada system imo works. It just creates some run around that can most easily be abused. But you have to create an system that works financially and feasibly and I think currently they have it right *most* of the time. It just imo can be gamed if an federation wants to game it...thus why Russia finally is being booted out.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Lol wow!! Now I've heard it all, if you are a drug cheat but from Kenya you aren't cheating, just 'taking the competitive spirit too far'

That really isn't what he said. I don't think anyone has said the Kenyan state and entire anti drug agency is implicated in the same way Russia has been. Of course any individual Kenyan athlete or coach is guilty when found to be but it can't be a blanket ban like Russia has.

My guess is there is probaly little difference but the scope of what Rus covers. Your talking prob 40x the number of sports that Russians affect as well as the footprint they have on competitions. So they likely behave in similar ways just that Kenya only affects an portion of what Russia touches.

ETA: In a special report written by WADA in 2018 on the abnormality of so many positives from In competition only testing with so few out of comp testing (which is the issue); Kenyan athletes failed test in 6 sports:

126 Athletics
2 bodybuilding
2 boxing
1 aquatics
1 cycling
1 weightlighting

6 sports. My guess is Russian athletes have failed at min 50 wada sports (remember not all wada sports are in the olympics).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It's quite clear what he said- individual drug cheats are taking competitive spirit to far..... No they are not, they are dirty bloody cheats, regardless of wether they are an individual or state sponsored.

That's what "too far" means. I get your point, but I don't think the poster above was being an apologist based on his other posts. No need to call him out for not selecting phrases outrage-y enough.

Hey dunno - appreciate that you're trying to contribute but it's worth thinking before you type, or reading what I was replying to first (note that I was looking at the distinction between Russia as a nation being banned while Kenya is not). It's pretty clear to most everyone that drug cheats are exactly that. You'll notice that I'm not a fan of Michi Weiss for this reason. Thank you to OddSlug who understood that.

However, you'd do well to remember that like most issues in the world, it's not so black and white. If I can clarify for you:

- Russia had state sponsored doping that was reminiscent of the Germans circa 1900's when the wall was up; the pressure is financial in nature for the government and athlete, and is large scale with one of the heads of anti-dope testing being complicit
- Kenya have pockets of athletes who are attempting to make a better life for themselves and families, and the pressure is multifold (cultural, financial, potentially life-saving for families etc)

As someone who aspires to be a pro at some point himself, I'd rather hope no one cheats. But I can appreciate the grayness of the situation without condoning it :)