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If you hated political threads before....
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We seem to have no shortage of Republicans and Democrats on this forum, but I'm curious, how many Liberitarians hang here? And what exactly are your major issues you fight for?

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I don't work here, I just live here
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure I want to pigeon-hole myself into one category or the other, but I could use some enlightenment as to what defines a "Libertarian." A lot of my views don't necessarily follow one "party line" or the other. Just one example, I don't personally smoke marijuana, but I don't view it as any more destructive to society than alcohol or tobacco. I think it should be legalized, regulated and more importantly, taxed and turned into a source of revenue rather than expend resources "combating" it and make room in our jails for "real" criminals. Some of my hippie type neighbors are pretty mellow people.

Brett

"Du or Du not-there is no Tri" - Yoda
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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I think I'd more or less consider myself a libertarian. Much more than I consider myself either Democrat or Republican.

To my mind, the biggest problems we have with the political system stem from the facts that:

1. As a member of either party, you are expected to tow the line in much the same way that a member of a particular religion is expected to follow the rules and not cause problems, whereas I think that most people are actually somewhere in between the two parties.

2. Both parties want to spend the huge amount of money that is in the budget on their special programs(whatever suits the agenda). To my mind, the government should keep me safe, provide a stable infrastructure, and leave me alone. Their obligation to me ends there. Similarly, I should not be expected to pay for all kinds of programs that I will never use or benefit from.

Ideologically, many of the plans and programs that we have envisioned to take care of each other are super, but realistically, most goverment run, sponsored, or affiliated programs are corrupt.

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Last edited by: jmorrissey: Jan 20, 04 13:45
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [timberwolf] [ In reply to ]
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"I think it should be legalized, regulated and more importantly, taxed and turned into a source of revenue rather than expend resources "combating" it and make room in our jails for "real" criminals'

Huge debate up here in Canada about it. I have mixed feelings. Don't know if it should be fully legalized, but then I know it's far less destructive than alcohol can be and if legalized would be a good source of tax revenue. Definately feel it should be decriminalized for personal use. I certainly don't consider anyone with a few joints in their house as a "criminal".

Consider Holland where it's quite legal to smoke pot in an Amsterdam cafe. Holland actually has the lowest hard drug problem in Europe whereas France with the toughest anti-pot laws, has the highest Euro hard drug problem. The US style "war on drugs" has obviously been a total failure and will continue to be so, but the conservatives with their blinkers on as usual, want to continue with this policy.
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [timberwolf] [ In reply to ]
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I'll back you on that Timberwolf. However, I'd also sign up the pharma giants to make cocaine, ecstacy, speed, etc. legalise them too, and tax the hell out of them.

The vast majority of people who use drugs do so in a "responsible" manner, meaning that they're not breaking into your house looking for money for their next fix, so why ban the stuff.
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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We can't legalize drugs, gentlemen, because we must protect the children. We do all love children, right? And we want to protect them, right? I mean, not from mad cow disease or getting killed by huge trucks, because that would hurt big corporations, but from drugs.

Anyway, think of the 200,000(unionized) people whose lives are dedicated to drug enforcement, the judicial system, and the prison system. What would they do for a living if we legalized drugs?

Really, don't you guys think about anyone but yourselves?

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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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I am a Libertarian.

One issue I have a huge problem with is taxes. I don't see how the government can take my money and give it to someone else, without even asking me. There's a term for this that's used countless times in earlier literature and it's plunder ... taking the product's of someone else's labor.

So, people say "Without tax money, there would be starving people, people without health care, etc". No. Churches, charities, and other groups would pick up the slack. Believe it or not, people might just find out that they can sustain themselves and not be dependent on the government their whole lives. I don't feel that without taxes the world will go to hell in a handbasket. I think we would be much more helpful than we are now. I think people don't help as much as they could b/c they've already donated "taxes". If you had all your tax money back in your paycheck, there would be more money to work with, so people could donate more often. I think this would be more efficient than government processes.

Now, whether or not this would work or not, I don't know. But, I'd like to try. I feel that mankind is generally "good", and that if we depended on each other rather than the government, we'd help each other a lot more often. This is a far cry from my opinions 10 years ago.

At least, if my money is going somewhere, let me choose where it goes.

I also feel that without taxes, and a lesser government role that corporations, companies etc would take over many tasks the government currently does and run them much more efficiently.

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What I try to do as a Libertarian is to get Americans to not think "should this be done", or "should this be legal" and think about "can this be done" or "does this have to be legal?"

All hard drugs have to be legal, IMO. I am not a drug user. I strongly feel that hard drugs are horrible mind-altering, addictive substances. But, going by what our founding fathers have written, man has a choice to do anything he wants that does not affect the freedom of others. People will say "yeah ... but we'll have drug-addicted zombies walking around committing crimes and not controlling their conscious thought". Well ... not to sound unsympathetic, but knowing they're addictive is part of making the choice. If hard drugs were made legal tomorrow would you use them? Why not? Is it unreasonable to assume others can make the same decision?

To often it seems that I meet people that love the "Red, White and Blue" but don't really agree with the founding principles of liberty and freedom. Sometimes I wonder if folks really understand what those terms mean.

I know folks will choose wrong some of the time. I know that liberty/freedom allows for some bad and scary stuff. Even knowing that, I still want to live in a country where we have that choice.

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The one choice I don't support is abortion. I don't see how it's not committing murder. I've read articles stating the baby doesn't have rights because it does not support itself and actually "plunders" the mothers products of labor. It sickens me to think that is how some of us view the fetus. In our medical profession we measure life by a heartbeat. Time of death = time heart stops beating. Yet, abortion is not murder. I think the lawyers did a great job snowballing the SCourt.

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I am a Libertarian, but as time goes on I wonder if living in a world with freedom is even possible. In another 20 years, I think we'll be shocked at how regulated we will become. We won't notice because it will be so gradual. We'll even likely ask for the laws/regulations because we think it will make us "safe".

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Honestly, I feel very helpless. I don't know what I can do to stop the government from taking on an even larger role than it already has. I'm not one of those guys that stands on his porch with a sawed-off just itchin' for the gubment to come to seize my house. But, I do feel the government has already stepped over its boundaries in many ways, and I would like to see it stopped and reversed a degree or two.

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I say good-bye to the Bush-Iraq thread b/c I'm short on time, and then you go start a thread about Libertarianism. Damn You.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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Liberitarian right here! Vot a straight liberitrian ticket every election.

The big huge number one thing I am against is campaign finance reform. The king number bomb dropped on our constituional right of free speech. The democrats and republicans can burn hell over this.

Tax cuts. Economics this and public education it's our money, not the goverments! Tax collection robbery at the point of a gun.

National defense. America has to come first. Treaties are not worth the paper they printed on. One world love fests don't work. A countries self interest will always trump anothers.

Drugs. Leaglize them already! This "war on drugs" is getting pathetic. Someone want to explain how our national drug policy is winning?

Free speech. There are limits to it of course but I should be able to say fuck on TV or radio. If my product is legal I should be able to advertise as much as I want.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [jmorrissey] [ In reply to ]
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Anyway, think of the 200,000(unionized) people whose lives are dedicated to drug enforcement, the judicial system, and the prison system. What would they do for a living if we legalized drugs?

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not ... so I'll ask these questions, and we'll see.

1. Do you think if hard drugs are legalized that thousands of people will just starting abusing them overnight?

2. Hard drugs are currently illegal. Still A LOT of people are using them. (A LOT means more than the junkies they show on the street)

3. What are the folks you mentioned really doing about #2?

4. Cigarettes are legal and much less harmful (in comparative quantities) than hard drugs. Still many adults do not use them. Why? Wouldn't it be the same with hard drugs?

5. Cigarettes and Alcohol are addicitve, harmful, and hazardous to your health. How are they legal but hard drugs are not?

6. Going back to the DEA and law enforcement ... how much violent crime is tied into the distruibution of hard drugs? I'm not saying we should make them legal to lower crime, but I'm saying hard drugs have to be legal according to what our founding fathers have written.

It is quite clear and repetitive that our founding fathers thought it was imperative that people have the right o make both good and bad choices. As long as it doesn't affect the rights of others.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Last edited by: TripleThreat: Jan 20, 04 15:36
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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Guys, don't confuse Independent with Libertarian. Having views that side with both parties (or neither party) makes you an Independent. I think I can sum up the Libertarian platform real quick:
1 legalize drugs
2 no taxes
3 legalize more drugs
4 the govt (any and all) sucks and should be done away with
5 legalize drugs
6 my actions do not affect others
7 personal responsibility for ones actions does not exist

The problem with this is that we don't live in a vacuum. Your actions do affect those around you. Whether its weed, alcohol, tobacco or crack, the use of said substances can have consequences far beyond the individual, whether a drain on the already strained health care system or killing someone while driving drunk.

Flame away...
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [dm in phx] [ In reply to ]
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Your arguements are easy for me to comprehend b/c I made them myself many times. The problem is that those arguements allow the country to be ran in a fashion that is the exact opposite of what it was set up to be.

Libertarians want the country to be ran as it was intended. The governmnet's job is to [1] protect from outside attacks, and [2] punish those that violate the rights of others. It's as simple as that.

I argued against libertarianism for most of my life. I mean hard drugs are horrible, who the hell would want them legal. We shoudl do away with guns. We should all have bar codes and all be listed. They should have cameras everywhere. They should protect us.

No. Most laws and ideas are out of fear. Fear that someone using hard drugs will do something to you or your family. Isn't that the same fear we had about alcohol? [another debate topic].

It is very easy for me to understand the anti-libertarian arguements, b/c I made them before over and over. Then, I did something life changing ... I started to read articles and documents written by Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, etc. I started looking at what freedom and liberty really meant and realised that what I was saying was just the opposite of freedom. It was a life-changing experience ... much like once you really study the Bible, and believe it.

I won't flame, b/c I have been there. My only recommendation to you is to read the literature written by our founding fathers. It's quite obvious what they had in mind, and we do not have it currently.

I think libertarians get painted as some guys in a tie-died shirt wnating to fry his own brain with heroin, or some redneck with a gun wanting to fight the government. To me, libertarians want people to rely on themselves, and not the government. That it how it is intended. We are way, way, way, way, too dependent on government. The government is much to helpful in meeting our desires of being regulated. We are both wrong.

If people would like to read ealrier documents by the authors of our constitution, declaration of independence, etc ... I would be more than happy to post some links.

For years I never had any interst in this stuff, now I see very little that is as important. I love the idea that our founding fathers had for this country. Too much American blood has been spilt in the name of freedom to have what we do now.

Again, I won't ever ridicule someone for not being open to the idea of freedom and liberty, because it can be scary to have other people "doing whatever they want".

actions do affect those around you. Whether its weed, alcohol, tobacco or crack, the use of said substances can have consequences far beyond the individual, whether a drain on the already strained health care system or killing someone while driving drunk.

If that's the way most people think, then we are on the verge of saying "Fuck It, make it a police state. Regulate/eliminate fast food, red meat, skateboards, bicycles, automobiles, anything that can contribute to bad health or injurious accidents which could affect someone else" [Sorry for the language, I used it for emphasis.

The idea of "everything we do affects someone else" is not the measuring stick. It's "does what i do privately affect your pursuit of life, liberty and the happiness". Not that I would, but my using heroin in my house doesn't keeo you from anythng you are entitled to. That last statement was very hard for me to swallow when I was in your shoes. The more I read, the more I couldn't avoid what I saw as the truth. We are intended to be free. Intended to make good decisions. We are not intended to have the government tell us what we can and cannot have unless we are preventing other from their inalienable rights.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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Seven Principles of Liberty: http://www.liberty1.org/seven.htm

Institute For American Liberty: http://www.liberty1.org If you ever wanted to read something written by the men that shaped this country, it's here. Print these babies out, read them during lunch, read tham on the stationary bike, the trainer, in the bath, on the toilet, etc.

I would encourage all Americans to explore this site, and read the documents. They are not biased opinion articles about this or that, they are the basis for our country. The Constitution. The Deceleration of Independence. Read them and understand the beaty of the language and the content.

America is an easy place to like. We're rich, we have a lot of nice stuff, we're tough, we can beat a lot of people up, we win a lot at the olympics, we have a lot of diversity, and on and on ... but I eagerly encourage you to read through some of these articles and see (if just for yourself) if you really agree with what the founding fathers think government and liberty should be like.

I know I can over-explain topics, and I don't want to do that. This, like Faith in God, is a personal decision. So, I will leave it up to you. I don't want to be too intrusive. I know how it is from both sides. All I ask is that you do not decide what America is or isn't or should or shouldn't be until you have a good understanding of how and why our documents say what they do.

Enjoy yourself.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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I am going to stump for my candidate Son of Bun from the Hot Tub Party. Sure, he's a four year old fingerpuppet, but he has a lot of wisdom. He is for subsidation of Playboy magazine, tax cuts for female strippers, and to bomb the shit out of any country with nukes if they don't agree with him.

I said I would stay out of politics on the Forum, but now I have spoken.
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I was totally being sarcastic.

The answer is, once again, big business and government corruption. Big business is the reason why marijuana was outlawed originally. It had nothing to do with Reefer Madness, it had to do with hemp being better than cotton and DuPont's new fabric, nylon. After hemp was outlawed, they temporarily repealed the ban during WWII, because neither cotton nor nylon could hold up to the abuse that hemp could when used for uniforms and rigging.

If we were all smoking pot, how much money do you think the pharmaceutical companies would be making on anti-anxiety drugs? Hmmm, $5 per Prozac, or free pot from the backyard? Tough call.

As far as violent crime goes, let's not kid ourselves. There are numerous factions of the government that are perfectly happy to have all the firefights going on. They rarely happen in nice neighborhoods, they give Special Response Teams the opportunity to practice killing people, and they give the government the ability to trample on your rights. Have you ever heard about the forfeiture scams some local police departments were pulling in conjunction with the DEA? The "War of Drugs" is the reason I finally decided I didn't want to go into law enforcement anymore.

Iran-Contra was about drugs. Noriega was about drugs. The Taliban was about drugs. (Still is from what I hear.)

The illicit drug trade makes the world go 'round. The dealers don't want it to be legal any more than the police do. Only the potheads want it legalized so they don't lose their houses over a few plants out back.

To anyone who thinks I am being cynical, and that my facts aren't straight, I'd suggest you do some homework. Otherwise, I will bury you.

As far as personal responsibility goes, I think that a lot of people should try it sometime. I'm a huge fan. I also believe in cause and effect, which dictates things like "If you put a cup of hot coffee between your legs with no lid, and then spill it and burn your nuts, you're a stupid fuck, and it ain't McDonald's fault!" Pardon my language.

I also believe the herd needs to be thinned. Why do we keep stopping Courtney Love from overdosing on heroin? It's not like she's going to stop trying!

Finally, I think that I should get to name the kids. You know how if you send Sally Struthers the price of a cup of coffee every day, they'll send you a dossier on the kid you're supporting? I think that Welfare should do that. I chose to have no children. If The goverment is going to rob me of my income under penalty of incarceration and give my money to people too stupid or irresponsible to use a god-damned condom, then I want to name the kid. Screw Tiffany Escalade Jones. I want to fill the world with Jeffrey Morrissey Jones'. When people ask how they got such an f'ed up name, they can say, "The crazy bastard who pays for my Mom's ripple named me that." I also want to make sure they learn math and go to school.

And don't get me started on my enforced birth control plan for people living off the government.

Have I made my position perfectly clear?

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Last edited by: jmorrissey: Jan 20, 04 18:03
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [jmorrissey] [ In reply to ]
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"Have I made my position perfectly clear? "

Great post. I'll back you 100%.
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [timberwolf] [ In reply to ]
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This is something that I definitely agree with. I gave a speech in college in favor of legalizing marijuana. I went to one of the more conservative schools in the nation (Texas A&M), but people were/are quite open-minded to it. I just feel that personal choices should be allowed. If you get high and break the law, then you should be punished. However, I don't have much any problem with folks smoking weed or eating green brownies.
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My latest thoughts..... [ In reply to ]
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A lot of you keep bringing up about how the government is trampling your rights (I don't disagree.) It is a verifiable principle that all governments will head towards total control. It's just taking longer with the U.S. than it did with most communists countries because we started pretty powerless. I don't think the whole case is hopeless though, Tommy G. Thompson (the longest running govorner of Wisconsin) stated some pretty good ideas in his book "Power to the People."

As for legalizing drugs, someone stated Holand legalized marijuana, and Amsterdam has one of the lowest drug abuse rates in the world. You are not quite correct. Amsterdam has the fewest charges for drug offense. That is because, very little is illegal in Holland. I've talked to quite a few people who have been to Amsterdam/Holland. Believe me when I tell you they are in no hurry to return. Visiting Amsterdam is fine as long as you stick to the few tourist areas, leave those....... and well....... it was nice knowing you buddy.

I've got my own opinion on drug control maybe I'll post that when I have a little more time. (And yes I have done my research) To sum it up simply, there are good reasons why drugs are illegal, I'm not saying there aren't bad reasons also, but to call someone names for not legalizing drugs is irresponsible, and pretty close minded.

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I don't work here, I just live here
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Re: My latest thoughts..... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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I can validate your statements about the situation in Amsterdam.

I don't have a problem with people being against legalization of drugs, as long as they have an intelligent reason for it, but which I mean something more than, "Drugs are bad because I was told that they are." Like many things, drugs can be good or bad, some more so than others. I will consider anyone's opinion on anything, providing that they can make a logical argument for it.

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Re: My latest thoughts..... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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To sum it up simply, there are good reasons why drugs are illegal,

To me, this is where the debate really gets started. I agree, there are good reasons why drugs are illegal. There are also good reasons why alcohol was once illegal. There are also good reasons why cigarettes should be illegal. There are also good reasons why pornography should be illegal. There are also good reasons why guns should be illegal. There are also good reasons why fast food should be illegal. There are good reasons why anything that can cause harm should be illegal.

As was pointed out in another thread, there are good reasons why any behavior that can cause another's insurance rates to go up, should be illegal. [I tried to point out that using this for the basis of legallity or violation of others rights, could be interpreted to make just about anything illegal, and the connection between behavior & affecting my rights needs to be more direct than this]

To me, it all comes down "can these be illegal?" or "do they have to be illegal?" As I mentioned before there was a time, that I would have argued that some of those things should be illegal. More abuse, health problems, poverty, etc is tied into alcohol and tobacco abuse.

But, the more I read of the ideas of our founding fathers and how the country was suppossed to operate, my viewpoint came down to "does individual use of the items listed above in a private setting affect another person's right to pursue their inalienable (not able to be taken away) rights?" To me, they do not, and if and when they do, the violator is to be punished.

I came to the conclusion that liberty and freedom allowed for behaviors and actions that I did not agree with nor that I would partake of myself. That was a weird feeling when I first realized that. Part of me was a little scared, part of me was a little embarassed of my previous thoughts, and part of me was overjoyed that I had realized what freedom really meant. It was confusing and revealing all in one moment.

But, I decided then and there that the idea of people doing what they want as long as they don't infringe on another's rights was how I wanted (and how our original leaders wanted) to live, and a place I wanted my kids to grow up. The alternative, where the government decides what is good/bad for me and what I can do/can't do even if affects no one but myself, was not upholding the declerations in our own original documents. The latter makes me feel very much like an irresponsible child, which I am not ... neither are many of my fellow Americans.

It was tiome for me to decide if I was going to be a Patriot (a defender of freedom) or if I was going to support more government control. The decision to be a patriot was no so I could use heroin after breakfast, or so I could grow marijuana crops in my backyard, or so I could not pay taxes ... it was because I really believed in the ideas and privilages bestowed upon the citizens by the original government.

I also realised that with freedom comes immense responsibility. Responsisbility in protecting her and ensuring that she lives on. But, alos in ensuring that my actions do not violate the rights of others. Lack of responsibility with freedom leads to chaos. Chaos leads to control. That has been fairly demonstrated throughout history. When there is choas, there is usually a plea for control. Once control has been established, abuse soon follows.

I want to post some more infromation, but I will stop here as to try and limit the length of my post. But, someone wrote something very interesting about the pattern of government/control that societies have gone through (in history), and the pattern has aknack of repeating itself over and over. It may be very revealing.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: My latest thoughts..... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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This was posted at another site (a weight lifting site ... yes, talking about that gets boring after awhile) in a thread about legalized drugs, violation of others rights, governments powers, the founding fathers, what is liberty, etc ... it started in a thread about Rush Limbaugh's admission to a rehab clinic following the pain reliver dependency bit. Go figure.

It was posted by someone that I respect quite a bit, and has shown himself to be very intelligent, mostly in the field of physics and human kinetics.

I think people will recognize some things that reflect today's America. It also shows that things written long ago, still have applications today. Certain ideas just do not go obsolete.

------------------------------------------------ Alexander Tyler, an 18th century Scottish historian, made the following comment over 220 years ago, when the American states were still British colonies:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship.

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence… back again to bondage.
-------------------------------------------------------

From this the debate started as to "where are we". I guessed somewhere between apathy and dependence, which bothered me a great deal.




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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: My latest thoughts..... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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<<I've got my own opinion on drug control maybe I'll post that when I have a little more time. (And yes I have done my research) To sum it up simply, there are good reasons why drugs are illegal, I'm not saying there aren't bad reasons also>>

I'm open.

Brett
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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I too am a committed libertarian and have been since college. In multiple threads over the past week, TripleThreat has done a marvelous job articulating many of the things I believe in most strongly, so I'll be brief.

To summarize my viewpoints:
  • All humans are created equal in the eyes of the Lord, and are endowed with inalienable rights that include life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
  • Just governments are granted by their citizens the primary obligation to protect liberty from internal and external harm. They possess no more authority than that, for any other actions (regulation, wealth redistribution, social engineering) require the diminution of rights to achieve their ends. In other words, just governments do not have the authority to take away rights, either as an end or a means to an end.
  • Democracy is not the same thing as liberty. In fact, a constitution and government balance of power are required to prevent the tyranny of the democratic majority (or non-democratic minority) from destroying the rights of minorities.
  • A libertarian government is best not just due to morality (per above), but also promotes general welfare better than any other system. Argument goes as articulated by Adam Smith, i.e., individuals using their free will to optimize for themselves will, through societal mechanisms that reflect supply/demand/value, also optimize for society as a whole.


The foundation for these beliefs comes from the European Enlightenment philosophers John Locke, David Hume, Adam Smith, etc., and their American descendents Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, etc. Our system of government was originally created by libertarians attempting to implement the philosophy of the European Enlightenment, and I believe in what they did. They are my heroes.

For me, nearly all issues of government domestic policy have a clear libertarian answer, i.e. the one that protects inalienable rights and one that doesn't. The biggest violation of those rights in contemporary America is taxation. Remember that before WWI, total taxation and government expenditures were well below 10%. Today, as a resident of California, I pay close to 45% on marginal income. As a result, roughly 25 of the 55 hours I work every week are done at my expense in the equivalence of involuntary servitude. I detest current levels of taxation and will simply stop working here if they get much higher. All other libertarian issues today pale in comparison since none involve such a major portion of my waking life.

IMO, drugs are an unfortunate lightening rod for libertarian critics. Yes, I believe they should be legalized. No, I'm not certain that society would be "better off" from a welfare perspective if they were. I've never taken drugs and never will, but I do believe others should have the right to make a different choice than I do. That said, this is such a small issue relative to others, like taxation, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of commerce, etc. I wish that most debates about libertarianism would focus on these bigger issues.

I'm saddened by how little of the political dialogue these days is grounded in a discussion of liberty and our system's original reason for existence: to protect it. Our country is fortunately anchored by the best Constitution ever written, but it seems at times as if someone cut the rope, and we drift rudderless in a storm. I think the Republican party does far more to protect liberty than the Democractic, but neither will pay much lip service to what matters most in the upcoming political year.

All I ask of government is to protect my freedom, and I'll take of the rest.
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [aardvark] [ In reply to ]
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I agree about the taxes. Many of my ideas were shaped by the body of work linked below:

The Law by Frederick Bastiat: http://www.constitution.org/law/bastiat.htm

Quoting the website ... "Frederic Bastiat (1801-1850) was a French economist, statesman, and author. He did most of his writing during the years just before - and immediately following -- the Revolution of February 1848. This was the period when France was rapidly turning to complete socialism. As a Deputy to the Legislative Assembly, Mr. Bastiat was studying and explaining each socialist fallacy as it appeared. And he explained how socialism must inevitably degenerate into communism. But most of his countrymen chose to ignore his logic.

The Law is here presented again because the same situation exists in America today as in the France of 1848. The same socialist-communist ideas and plans that were then adopted in France are now sweeping America. The explanations and arguments then advanced against socialism by Mr. Bastiat are -- word for word -- equally valid today. His ideas deserve a serious hearing."

Sadly some will not look at this because he is French. My last name is Bemont, with derivitives being Beamont, Beaumont, so it's not hard to decipher where my ancestors came from. This article is where I learned of the term plunder and had it explained in government/economic terms. Aardvark's comments of 25/55 hours of the week will apply here.

So, when someone ask what do Libertarians want changed? The answe is "quite a bit actually".

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: If you hated political threads before.... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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I am a Republican, but identify more with the Goldwater type Republican than the Bush (41 or 43) type. The problem is, the Goldwater Republican party was doomed to be right, but out of power. The Bush Republican party is more right than the Democrats, but in power. Which is better? Hmm, a conundrum. I too long for a return to the ideals of our founding fathers. But, casting my lot in with the whopping 1 percent that votes Libertarian? I dunno.
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Re: My latest thoughts..... [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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"I've talked to quite a few people who have been to Amsterdam/Holland."

I'll admit it's been a few years since I was last there, and there's a few parts of town to avoid, but it certainly seemed safer than any American city at night that I've been to. Ever driven up the wrong street in Detroit?
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