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Idea to police drafting
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How about take a GoPro and. Garmin Varia “the radar thing” and combine the two. When the Garmin picks up a proximity issue, drafting, it starts recording. Now the drafting is on video.

The Garmin field of detection would have to be adjusted down from its current use, however maybe that would t be too hard. Now we have detection of a foul.

The GoPro would be trigged to record on the detection of the foul and continue for let’s just say 30 seconds after the object is no longer detected. This gives solid Video proof.

For further validation, modify the video recoding with lines (similar to back up cameras) showing the draft window.

If then we get some fancy video analysis software, maybe it could determine if a foul should be detected further. That detection could be automatically flagged.

If there is front and rear mounted units, the two units involved in the detection could be tied (in the software) so that there is also detection verification from both angles front and rear.

Anyway, things we think about during this COVID mess
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Re: Idea to police drafting [TooSlow] [ In reply to ]
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TooSlow wrote:

The Garmin field of detection would have to be adjusted down from its current use, however maybe that would t be too hard. Now we have detection of a foul.

Not just adjusted down. You'd need an entirely different sensor. The Varia detects metal. Not carbon fiber and water (people).
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Re: Idea to police drafting [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
TooSlow wrote:

The Garmin field of detection would have to be adjusted down from its current use, however maybe that would t be too hard. Now we have detection of a foul.

Not just adjusted down. You'd need an entirely different sensor. The Varia detects metal. Not carbon fiber and water (people).

How about the proximity sensor that is used on car bumpers?
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Re: Idea to police drafting [TooSlow] [ In reply to ]
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You could just put a rear facing gopro on your saddle and run it the entire time if you're that concerned about it, or they also have voice command to start recording. integrating a radar system into a gopro seems like a lot of work for no benefit.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [TooSlow] [ In reply to ]
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or how about just allow drafting. then it wont be a problem anymore, would it?


http://www.coupleofathletes.com
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Re: Idea to police drafting [TooSlow] [ In reply to ]
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TooSlow wrote:

How about the proximity sensor that is used on car bumpers?

Those are generally ultrasonic sonar and would work in theory for your purpose.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Are you sure this is correct? I'm pretty sure I've picked up more than just approaching metal.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
TooSlow wrote:


The Garmin field of detection would have to be adjusted down from its current use, however maybe that would t be too hard. Now we have detection of a foul.


Not just adjusted down. You'd need an entirely different sensor. The Varia detects metal. Not carbon fiber and water (people).

Incorrect.

The Varia detects moving objects behind you (regardless of form) and the relative speed that they are (or are not) approaching you. If something is moving the same speed as you (car, biker, etc.) it does not "detect" it.

While riding I've had it detect many different objects than just cars, including bike riders, horses, airplanes, and boats. While stopped I've also had it detect a runner approaching from behind on a trail.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
or how about just allow drafting. then it wont be a problem anymore, would it?

This will always get my vote. All our local events were draft legal in the 80's, until TriFed came to town. It made the bike portion of the race, a real bike race. Those who could draft did, those who couldn't didn't, and we all had a blast. Every now and then we'd get a whiner, usually poor swimmers, and/or someone who got dropped, about how unfair drafting was. But they were few and far between. The whiners back then, were much fewer, and caused a lot less hassles and trouble back then, than the draft cheaters do now.

Unfortunately, it probably won't happen anytime soon, as the bikes have evolved into very dangerous draft machines. I couldn't imagine 3000 indoor trained, inexperienced cyclists on tri bikes, in a draft legal race. And I also couldn't imagine making a race draft legal, and telling everyone that aero bars were illegal. So wham... things have evolved into what they are, and that's the way it is for now.

As for draft policing, I'm looking forward to the technology to be put into our timing chips. Simply recording a violation, any time the chip is in the proximity of another chip, for longer than a certain time span. Then electronically add the penalty time to finish time.

Athlinks / Strava
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Re: Idea to police drafting [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:

While riding I've had it detect many different objects than just cars, including bike riders, horses, airplanes, and boats. While stopped I've also had it detect a runner approaching from behind on a trail.


*Pretty* sure it's designed specifically to detect vehicles, and any other non-vehicle detection should be considered a false alarm. Fwiw, I definitely haven't seen what you're talking about. On group rides mine does a great job of not picking up riders in my group (even riders I'm passing or getting passed by).

Mine also detects parked cars I'm riding by, but no pedestrians or trees that I'm flying by.

I wonder if yours is prone to more false alarms? I have a gen 2.

It'd be utterly useless and annoying if it was just picking up everything moving relative to you. I'd estimate that 95+% of "car icons" that show up on my head unit are, indeed, cars. I'm truly impressed at how accurate it is. Except it misses quite a few motorcycles, in my experience.
Last edited by: trail: Aug 31, 20 10:29
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Re: Idea to police drafting [Dean T] [ In reply to ]
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As for draft policing, I'm looking forward to the technology to be put into our timing chips. Simply recording a violation, any time the chip is in the proximity of another chip, for longer than a certain time span. Then electronically add the penalty time to finish time.


This is the only true solution
ps you can't do a draft legal race with bars.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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cujo wrote:
Are you sure this is correct? I'm pretty sure I've picked up more than just approaching metal.


*Pretty* sure. Though there are false alarms.

I'm not a total tool here (well sometimes I am, but I don't think in this instance)....I work with automotive radar in my day job. I'd be really surprised if Garmin used a radar *not* tuned for vehicle detection. Given that's their stated intent.
Last edited by: trail: Aug 31, 20 10:38
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Re: Idea to police drafting [TooSlow] [ In reply to ]
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It is simply impossible to avoid drafting given the way races are designed.
Put 2400 people into a mass swim start and the first 40-60 miles of the bike are always going to be a shit show.

Moving to staggered PRO/AG swim starts (like Roth has done for over a decade) makes drafting much easier to avoid and doesn't need pricey technological solutions.

EDIT: Continue fapping over technology solutions to a system problem
Last edited by: NordicSkier: Aug 31, 20 14:09
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Re: Idea to police drafting [trail] [ In reply to ]
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so this is what I thought, but mine definitely picks up cyclists approaching (on carbon bikes). consistently.

Human Person
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Re: Idea to police drafting [trismitty] [ In reply to ]
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trismitty wrote:
so this is what I thought, but mine definitely picks up cyclists approaching (on carbon bikes). consistently.

Huh, I haven't noticed that. I'll try to test that out more. I thought I would have noticed that. I consider myself lucky to get motorcycles. But it would seem like such a nuisance, I thought I would have seen it.

Next few rides I'll try to experiment.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [trismitty] [ In reply to ]
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trismitty wrote:
so this is what I thought, but mine definitely picks up cyclists approaching (on carbon bikes). consistently.

Why are you letting cyclists approach you, you should be biking harder.

-----------------------------------------------------------
De Soto Sport Athlete
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: Idea to police drafting [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
logella wrote:

While riding I've had it detect many different objects than just cars, including bike riders, horses, airplanes, and boats. While stopped I've also had it detect a runner approaching from behind on a trail.


*Pretty* sure it's designed specifically to detect vehicles, and any other non-vehicle detection should be considered a false alarm. Fwiw, I definitely haven't seen what you're talking about. On group rides mine does a great job of not picking up riders in my group (even riders I'm passing or getting passed by).

Mine also detects parked cars I'm riding by, but no pedestrians or trees that I'm flying by.

I wonder if yours is prone to more false alarms? I have a gen 2.

It'd be utterly useless and annoying if it was just picking up everything moving relative to you. I'd estimate that 95+% of "car icons" that show up on my head unit are, indeed, cars. I'm truly impressed at how accurate it is. Except it misses quite a few motorcycles, in my experience.

Again, you are incorrect. It is not "designed specifically" to detect vehicles. It is certainly marketed that way. Below is the language from the Varia patent:

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The situational awareness information presented on the display may include a determined location of a detected target (e.g., an approaching vehicle, pedestrian, cyclist, object, animal, other cyclist, etc.)

It is not a "false alarm" when it alerts to targets other than vehicles. It just so happens that when cycling probably 99% of the targets happen to be vehicles. That doesn't mean that it's a false alarm if it detects a target that is not a vehicle.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [Dean T] [ In reply to ]
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Dean T wrote:
synthetic wrote:
or how about just allow drafting. then it wont be a problem anymore, would it?


This will always get my vote. All our local events were draft legal in the 80's, until TriFed came to town. It made the bike portion of the race, a real bike race. Those who could draft did, those who couldn't didn't, and we all had a blast. Every now and then we'd get a whiner, usually poor swimmers, and/or someone who got dropped, about how unfair drafting was. But they were few and far between. The whiners back then, were much fewer, and caused a lot less hassles and trouble back then, than the draft cheaters do now.

Unfortunately, it probably won't happen anytime soon, as the bikes have evolved into very dangerous draft machines. I couldn't imagine 3000 indoor trained, inexperienced cyclists on tri bikes, in a draft legal race. And I also couldn't imagine making a race draft legal, and telling everyone that aero bars were illegal. So wham... things have evolved into what they are, and that's the way it is for now.

As for draft policing, I'm looking forward to the technology to be put into our timing chips. Simply recording a violation, any time the chip is in the proximity of another chip, for longer than a certain time span. Then electronically add the penalty time to finish time.

The 80's: No tri bars* and much smaller fields.
Tris were also a bit more hard core; more racers and fewer bucket listers.


*It was pretty much '88 until anyone but a few pros had the Scott bars.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [logella] [ In reply to ]
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The patent just presents an idea. The Varia is a specific device. I don't think a list of items after "e.g." gives any real knowledge about the engineering design specifications of the Varia.

If you're going to call me "incorrect" with confidence you're going to have to do better than that.

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It is not a "false alarm" when it alerts to targets other than vehicles


Per the stated purpose by Garmin, it is. Its stated purpose is a vehicle detection device. The icons in the head unit are...vehicles. Per my experience, it detects vehicles almost exclusively. Per the above I'll do a test where I ride by cyclists, people, and trees while unsafely holding a phone to my head unit. But I can't imagine I'd trust what the head unit says at all at this point if it did so with any regularity. And I *do* trust it quite a bit. (though I always look before making a move anyway).
Last edited by: trail: Aug 31, 20 12:04
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Re: Idea to police drafting [trail] [ In reply to ]
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In my experience it will detect bicycles coming from behind as well, as long as the speed differential is great enough. I do find the 510/515 seems more sensitive to other riders than the 500.
Last edited by: Greatzaa: Aug 31, 20 12:13
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Re: Idea to police drafting [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
trismitty wrote:
so this is what I thought, but mine definitely picks up cyclists approaching (on carbon bikes). consistently.

I experience this often.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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Well shit, maybe I'm wrong about cyclists. But I'll try it out.
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Re: Idea to police drafting [Grantbot21] [ In reply to ]
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valid point

Human Person
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Re: Idea to police drafting [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
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ps you can't do a draft legal race with bars
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Well, they're talking about editing the rules for new situations. So, you could totally change the rules to allow both drafting and bars. Now, SHOULD you is a very different discussion.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Idea to police drafting [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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They'd have to be daft to do that. The level of skill that turns out for a race doesn't allow for it and not having instant access to brakes doesn't allow for it.
The one serious road group, I rode with, here in Toronto, that allowed bikes with bars to ride with them had only one rule about that, no using the bars.
I personally would never race in a Tri that allowed drafting and bars.

Not to go off on a tear, I have never understood people who draft in a Tri, but I will admit I have watched it in every Tri I have ever been in right up to Kona.
The penalties are insufficient and I hope that one day technology will change that. A combination of chips, timing mats and a few algorithms might be sufficient, maybe with a few drones thrown in.
Last edited by: michael Hatch: Sep 2, 20 7:12
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