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I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology
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I haven't looked at ST for a while. I was half expecting to see a separate Lance forum alongside the Lavender Room and the Women's fora.

But most of all I was surprised not to see a whole lot of mea culpas from those who dissed LeMond over the years. Let's face it. LeMond was right -- about everything. LeMond was the first Jens.

This should have been obvious at the time. I just dug up an old email where I estimated VO2maxs on the Alpe d'Huez . My rough estimate was that LA would have needed a 95 VO2max to get the time he did.




Jens Heycke wrote:


Interesting. If we assume:

bike+rider weight = 82 kg
distance = 13.2 km
slope =8.112%
temp= 65 deg.
barometer: 29.9inch
air density= 1.117 kg/m-3
crr = .026 (the number for Dugast Speed Silk tubulars)
cDa = 0.31 (from a glimpse at the wind tunnel numbers in the Lance chronicles I know even his TT cDA is pretty high -- .26ish)

Armstrong's 36:37 time would take power of 449.5 watts. If his power curve is like mine, his functional threshold power (FTP) would be at least 441 watts or 6.125 watts/kg.

So what's the implication? A relatively conservative VO2Max estimate is:

VO2 Max in ml/kg/min = 12*(FTP*1.25) + 3.5 where FTP is defined in w/kg

That would estimate his VO2Max at 95.375.

As for Indurain...... At a weight of 80 Kg., his 38:14 took an unbelievable 477 watts. (He could almost power my wife's hair dryer).

I don't think 1995 was a time-trial like 2004, so that's probably close to Indurain's FTP. So he had 5.99 watts/kg which equates to a VO2max of 93.35. Despite the weight difference, there's some consistency here....

For some more fun, suppose Armstrong had clinchers and switched from a butyl tube to an undersized (20c) latex tube. It would have saved him 12 seconds.


- Jens Heycke


Karlgaard, Rich wrote:


Interesting list. All of the top 45 times occurred between 1991 and 2008. http://www.fillarifoorumi.fi/...=1908053#post1908053


Last edited by: jens: Jan 16, 13 19:38
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I second that, I always liked lemond. He is in my opinion the most naturally talented cyclist in history, and he always knew what he was talking about and held firm when constantly attacked, there's a true champion.
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [HXB] [ In reply to ]
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Related to the post Lemond era where the likes of Indurain and Lance flourished, think about another rider. Chris Boardman could only compete where you curled himself up in the smallest ball possible, pushed the least wind with his watts....and was able to compete in short timed races like TT's and Prologues where holding his position was possible. As soon as the road went up and watts per kilo rules, Boardman was off the back. Boardman was able to set world hour records in a standard TT aerobar (non superman) position and beat Indurain, but could never compete in the mountains. It's not like his watts per kilo were that bad....they just were not as good as some guys who were enhanced.
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Wasn't boardman under a suspicious eye at times though? As far as I understand it, boardman also just had a no ability to recover and just got more and more beat up and exhausted as the race went on.
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [HXB] [ In reply to ]
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HXB wrote:
As far as I understand it, boardman also just had a no ability to recover and just got more and more beat up and exhausted as the race went on.


and why might that be? possibly some medical conditions he had and possibly because he was clean?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [jens] [ In reply to ]
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If photos could say it all, these two from a fantastic day in 1989 do the man justice ...





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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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his position there is spot on.
"damn seat is too far back, im not gonna use it"

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
If photos could say it all, these two from a fantastic day in 1989 do the man justice ...






Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Relatively speaking, if he was clean, then he would have a disadvantage in terms of recovery. I just remember the old documentaries where he's attempting to break the hour record, he and his coaches just stated it as a matter of fact, he cant recover, it was funny, they made him sound like a sickly, temperamental Brit. I'm not sure of the physiological reasons, I guess some guys just don't possess the ability go go hard consecutive days at that level.
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [HXB] [ In reply to ]
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Well, maybe not an apology as some of us never maligned him. I'd venture to say that many of the LA supporters didn't even bash Lemond. Rather, it's the likes of Trek that should eat humble pie and apologize.

Way to go Lemond. Perhaps there's some poetic justice that Lemond is now America's only World Champ and TdF champ, not to mention he's also the last man to take off the rainbow jersey and swap it for the yellow jersey and wore the latter all the way to Paris.


HXB wrote:
Wasn't boardman under a suspicious eye at times though? As far as I understand it, boardman also just had a no ability to recover and just got more and more beat up and exhausted as the race went on.

no, Boardman wasn't under suspicion. He had low-T (alas the horrible recovery in stage races). It was so low that he was at risk for osteoporosis, and his doctor recommended T treatment, but he refused as it would be considered doping
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty sure it is Lance that owes him an apology
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
If photos could say it all, these two from a fantastic day in 1989 do the man justice ...

don't forget these from a later date in 1989 :)



guess who finished six in this race?
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Lemond is not the only American WC. Armstrong still has his title from '93.

And while Lemond did indeed swap the rainbow hoops for a yellow jersey, "all the way to Paris" was one day. It wasn't that far.

;-)

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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Some here were always supportive of LeMond, but it's hard for many to admit when they are mistaken. Too many here fawning over false idols. When Armstrong wanted to incinerate LeMond in the press and his business with Trek, he did... and too many of LA's blind followers, followed LA, like a flock to their shepherd. I started a post about LeMond and defended him 6 years ago. Plenty of LeMond hate... too bad, as he was and is the real deal- maybe not the most polished speaker, but a passionate individual and a genetic freak.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=lemond;#1415229

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=lemond;#1415499
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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mcycle wrote:
Some here were always supportive of LeMond, but it's hard for many to admit when they are mistaken. Too many here fawning over false idols. When Armstrong wanted to incinerate LeMond in the press and his business with Trek, he did... and too many of LA's blind followers, followed LA, like a flock to their shepherd. I started a post about LeMond and defended him 6 years ago. Plenty of LeMond hate... too bad, as he was and is the real deal- maybe not the most polished speaker, but a passionate individual and a genetic freak.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=lemond;#1415229

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=lemond;#1415499

wait, you mean this display of trial by internet with a mob with no concrete evidence was tolerated?

i am shocked shocked shocked ;)
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [HXB] [ In reply to ]
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HXB wrote:
Relatively speaking, if he was clean, then he would have a disadvantage in terms of recovery. I just remember the old documentaries where he's attempting to break the hour record, he and his coaches just stated it as a matter of fact, he cant recover, it was funny, they made him sound like a sickly, temperamental Brit. I'm not sure of the physiological reasons, I guess some guys just don't possess the ability go go hard consecutive days at that level.

Boardman had some sort of testosterone problem. He also had osteoporosis in his twenties.
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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OH SNAP!

good point though.

echappist wrote:
mcycle wrote:
Some here were always supportive of LeMond, but it's hard for many to admit when they are mistaken. Too many here fawning over false idols. When Armstrong wanted to incinerate LeMond in the press and his business with Trek, he did... and too many of LA's blind followers, followed LA, like a flock to their shepherd. I started a post about LeMond and defended him 6 years ago. Plenty of LeMond hate... too bad, as he was and is the real deal- maybe not the most polished speaker, but a passionate individual and a genetic freak.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=lemond;#1415229

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=lemond;#1415499

wait, you mean this display of trial by internet with a mob with no concrete evidence was tolerated?

i am shocked shocked shocked ;)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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I always liked his unfiltered talk, you get a lot of PC talk from athletes and dodging questions in terms of their real thoughts. I never really thought of him as arrogant, just confident and secure in his abilities, which were substantial. He always gave you a blunt answer, and rarely hedged his performances by downplaying his abilities.
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
OH SNAP!

good point though.

echappist wrote:
mcycle wrote:
Some here were always supportive of LeMond, but it's hard for many to admit when they are mistaken. Too many here fawning over false idols. When Armstrong wanted to incinerate LeMond in the press and his business with Trek, he did... and too many of LA's blind followers, followed LA, like a flock to their shepherd. I started a post about LeMond and defended him 6 years ago. Plenty of LeMond hate... too bad, as he was and is the real deal- maybe not the most polished speaker, but a passionate individual and a genetic freak.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=lemond;#1415229

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=lemond;#1415499


wait, you mean this display of trial by internet with a mob with no concrete evidence was tolerated?

i am shocked shocked shocked ;)

and i'm gonna get booted off of slowtwitch

but hey, i got my fill. Got my powertap and stinger 6's here, as well as sold my quarq, etc :)
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [HXB] [ In reply to ]
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I should add, Lemond has always spoken from the heart, unfiltered, at times, almost always without a personal agenda. Here is a video montage of the exact opposite, classic Lance.

http://entertainment.msn.com/...13-a57b-da6cf5973b58
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
If photos could say it all, these two from a fantastic day in 1989 do the man justice ...


don't forget these from a later date in 1989 :)



guess who finished six in this race?

1 Lemond
2 Konyshev
3 Sean Kelly

Who is the Dutchman in 4th....is that Adri Van der Poel?

Dev
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the trip back memory lane with that picture. I had toured through Chambery a few years before that on my touring bike. I checked for coverage on youtube and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJSgzHTRg38


So I got it wrong....the 4th place Dutchman was Steven Rooks. Still no clue who was 6th unless Fignon who was in the chase blew off the back.


Dev
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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   You might want to recognize that Armstrong was a genetic freak too. Nothing says you can't be a genetic freak AND a doper.
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Thanks for the trip back memory lane with that picture. I had toured through Chambery a few years before that on my touring bike. I checked for coverage on youtube and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJSgzHTRg38


So I got it wrong....the 4th place Dutchman was Steven Rooks. Still no clue who was 6th unless Fignon who was in the chase blew off the back.


Dev

devashish_paul wrote:
Thanks for the trip back memory lane with that picture. I had toured through Chambery a few years before that on my touring bike. I checked for coverage on youtube and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJSgzHTRg38


So I got it wrong....the 4th place Dutchman was Steven Rooks. Still no clue who was 6th unless Fignon who was in the chase blew off the back.


Dev

Winner winner.

4th was Rooks, 5th was Thierry (donno who that is), and 6th is Fignon. Fignon attacked on the last climb only to be caught by Lemond.



dave_w wrote:
You might want to recognize that Armstrong was a genetic freak too. Nothing says you can't be a genetic freak AND a doper.

Lemond has a VO2max of 93. LA has a VO2max of 85. People with higher VO2max benefit less from O2 vector doping (e.g. EPO and blood doping). Alas you get a lot of donkeys who got really good, only to stink it up once doping control got tighter


Francois wrote:
echappist wrote:
Well, maybe not an apology as some of us never maligned him.


I guess some of us here have been pretty outspoken against lance (echappist included). And been insulted in the process.
But I find all this rather funny now ;-)

unfortunately, i must say that I even rooted for LA back in 2009. Somehow in 2010 i started putting two and two together. That and reading about his mean streak really turned me against him.

Tomorrow should be an interesting day. And yes, i'm buoyed somewhat by schadenfreude right now
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Re: I think we all owe Greg Lemond a big apology [dave_w] [ In reply to ]
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dave_w wrote:
You might want to recognize that Armstrong was a genetic freak too. Nothing says you can't be a genetic freak AND a doper.

Sadly, we only know now that he is a genetic freak when doped with the best doctors, drugs, and deception. We will never know what a clean LA could do. As an FYI, his first pro race in Europe in 1992, he finished dead last. Lemond was crushing Europe from day one, placing 3rd in his first tour de France, while riding in support of his team leader, Fignon. Lance didn't even finish his first tour. To say they we're remotely comparable is laughable.
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