I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap

Oct 26, 07 13:03

Post #1 of 544 (28477 views)

I'm searching for the perfect Slowtwitch thread title and this may be it. It's a little long, I know. :-)

I'm too lazy to give the background here and I figure most regular STers will get it. Anyway, I met up with Joaquin this afternoon in Soto Del Real, a small town a few miles away from Miraflores (the base of the climb up La Morcuera). Super nice guy; he was a little blind-sided by being thrust into the center of the ongoing Slowtwitch Frank Day vs. The World show. I tried to explain that it wasn't him (mostly).

I expected to get waxed up the climb, and Joaquin didn't disappoint. He rode an old aluminum Cannondale with the Powercranks and a set of Zipp wheels with a Powertap SL. I was on my POS road bike with my PT, unfortunately with no CPU because the damn thing's sitting here in my hotel room dead as a doornail. Just warming up on the way from Soto Del Real to Miraflores, I was pushing over threshold; I looked over at one point and Joaquin was showing 340 watts up a short climb. God knows what that meant for me as I'm carrying approximately 45 pounds more uphill.

We got to the base of the climb, I looked at my watch, and waved goodbye. Joaquin pedaled away from me on those goofy cranks and I never saw him after the first curve. Eventually, he came back down the last two kilometers and rode back up with me. He was about a minute off of his best time on the climb, (edit: 28' 38" today), and said he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) and heart rate in the 180ish range. I'm pretty sure he gave it all he had. I reached the top at 42 minutes.

We took a couple of pictures at the sign at the top, froze our asses off descending, and had a beer before parting ways. I hope I'll be able to ride with him more in the future.

Finishing up, I have no idea whether the Powercranks are responsible for his power output, and I find Frank's incessant posts regarding them as annoying as anyone. Like somebody said in one of the recent threads, I probably would've tried them a long time ago for a bit less money and with a lot less hucksterism.

Bottom line though: Joaquin's for real. Here's a guy past 40, 3 kids, traveling job, and he's putting out a LOT of power, especially at a body weight of 62k. I'd be happy if I could match that power at my weight of 83k. I figured after some of the hostile posts regarding him, this might even the scales.

Kendall Frederick
currently sitting in a Madrid hotel room..

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Last edited by: KendallF: Oct 27, 07 11:01

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 13:21

Post #2 of 544 (28409 views)

Thanks for the post.

I would love to have a few of these folks even try to ride on the PC's. They may have a real reason why they do not want to
try them. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 13:45

Post #3 of 544 (28346 views)

No doubt he has to be in top notch shape to beat you.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 13:56

Post #4 of 544 (28302 views)

And the mystique of Joaqin grows...

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [beatnic_tx] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 13:58

Post #5 of 544 (28296 views)

In Reply To:

No doubt he has to be in top notch shape to beat you.

That's not the point. Perhaps your daughter, riding her tricycle, could beat me up La Morcuera. I don't really care. If Joaquin can put out that kind of wattage riding the PCs up a 10% grade, he's a good cyclist.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:01

Post #6 of 544 (28288 views)

I am so, SO, looking forward to seeing this thread reach its full potential...

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Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:12

Post #7 of 544 (28243 views)

I can only imagine...thoughts of debates on the "right" way to pedal, the mechanism that makes us get faster, and how to interpret Joaquin's power file are dancing in my head....

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:14

Post #8 of 544 (28233 views)

this phrase alone can inspire at least 1000 posts.

Quote:

said he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) and heart rate in the 180ish range

this thread should be a mandatory read for WVU...'s Tri 101 class this spring ;-)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:21

Post #9 of 544 (28206 views)

Well, you aren't giving us much info at all, and it's way precipitous to say this :0), but here goes -

if Joaquin was pushing 340 up that short climb, and the average wattage for the long climb was in the neighborhood of 358, with a HR in the "180 range," we all need to get ready for a long litany of excuses from Frank again - 'cause that ain't gonna cut the mustard to support the claims that have been made - not even close...

VO2 Max. 5794 ml/min
VO2 Max rel. 85,46 ml/min/kg
Max Power 451 Watts at 181 bpm_
FTP (1 hour): 394 Watts at 169 bpm at 87% of VO2 Max

:0)

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:34

Post #10 of 544 (28174 views)

I don't think the power numbers from the blood lactate test are valid either. Don't know how much gain he's made, don't know if the PCs are responsible. I'm just a guy who thought it'd be fun to ride up the climb with Joaquin while I'm here for my real job (which sure as hell isn't power testing, Powercranks, or anything similar).

The poor guy just got dumped into the Frank Day War(tm), got lots of slurs tossed in his direction, and it turns out he's a pretty damn good cyclist. Forget about Frank's claims for a minute. Joaquin's a good rider and I enjoyed meeting him and doing the climb with him.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:40

Post #11 of 544 (28146 views)

I think, if you want all of ST just to realize Joaquin is a good rider, barring anything else, you should have posted a title that said something about "I met Joaquin and had fun riding up a hill with him."

As soon as you mention PC's, La Morcuera, Powertaps, and Watts, you're already starting a new battle!

:-)

And I can't wait to watch the ensuing car wreck!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:44

Post #12 of 544 (28133 views)

In Reply To:

I think, if you want all of ST just to realize Joaquin is a good rider, barring anything else, you should have posted a title that said something about "I met Joaquin and had fun riding up a hill with him."

As soon as you mention PC's, La Morcuera, Powertaps, and Watts, you're already starting a new battle!

:-)

And I can't wait to watch the ensuing car wreck!

This is absolutely true. I couldn't resist.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:52

Post #13 of 544 (28105 views)

Oh, I don't blame you! I'd do exactly the same thing.

The real problem is something you've already touched on, Joaquin is probably a nice enough guy. He just got thrown into the middle of this and between Frank and Joaquin, they couldn't get the proof everyone else was looking for.

Anyway...let the battle begin.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:00

Post #14 of 544 (28084 views)

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Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:03

Post #15 of 544 (28075 views)

In Reply To:

Well, you aren't giving us much info at all, and it's way precipitous to say this :0), but here goes -

if Joaquin was pushing 340 up that short climb, and the average wattage for the long climb was in the neighborhood of 358, with a HR in the "180 range," we all need to get ready for a long litany of excuses from Frank again - 'cause that ain't gonna cut the mustard to support the claims that have been made - not even close...

VO2 Max. 5794 ml/min
VO2 Max rel. 85,46 ml/min/kg
Max Power 451 Watts at 181 bpm_
FTP (1 hour): 394 Watts at 169 bpm at 87% of VO2 Max

:0)

.

Why don't we wait until we see the power file and see what he says. He did say it was a minute off his best time and I think he was expecting to set a PR and I think even you would agree that not everybody can have their best day everyday. Or, maybe we can't even agree on that.

Anyhow, I don't make this stuff up. The test results were the test results. This climb was this climb. I simply pass on what people report.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:18

Post #16 of 544 (28045 views)

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

Avg. Power of 358
Time at La Morcuera that is a minute (or roughly 3% slower) than his PB.

A CP30 of 5.77 is certainly very impressive, but that should, I think, have resulted in a significantly faster time than he'd ever done before. It's also almost exactly 5.8, which is, conveniently, the number he thought he could hit. Tiltheend lives in the area and holds a PB up that climb of ~30 min weighing ~64kg and putting out 301watts.

I'm waiting to see the actual power file. Though, after all of this, it makes me think, simply put that the dudes powermeter is miscalibrated. That could explain a lot. 5.8w/kg, based on what was covered in the liar, liar encyclopedia (too long to be a thread), should have resulted in a vast PB.

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE... (even the 280->340 time drop does not compute). My guess? Either he "thought" he averaged 358w (I don't know enough about the powertap to know how intervals work, so maybe he didn't hit the interval button, just guessed off the number he saw? Is there an interval button?). Or his powertap is broken. Or he is lying. Or the definitions of the physical world have changed...

EDIT: tiltheend does not live in the area, but those numbers were from a cyclist who does, and who posted that comment on the wattage forum on google.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Last edited by: Rappstar: Oct 26, 07 15:20

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:27

Post #17 of 544 (28028 views)

"He did say it was a minute off his best time and I think he was expecting to set a PR and I think even you would agree that not everybody can have their best day everyday."

Excuse #1. Should we keep a tally?

The OP is right on, in my opinion; I feel for Joa...

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Last edited by: fredly: Oct 26, 07 15:30

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:35

Post #18 of 544 (28013 views)

In Reply To:

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE...

That's my fault..I couldn't remember his best time and was too lazy to look it up; I thought it was around 30. Tonight he just said he'd missed his best by about a minute. I was still down the climb huffing and puffing. I probably should've left the numbers out of the post entirely without the power file. Yes, the PT has an interval, and I saw that it was zeroed before we started.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:42

Post #19 of 544 (27999 views)

In Reply To:

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

Avg. Power of 358
Time at La Morcuera that is a minute (or roughly 3% slower) than his PB.

A CP30 of 5.77 is certainly very impressive, but that should, I think, have resulted in a significantly faster time than he'd ever done before. It's also almost exactly 5.8, which is, conveniently, the number he thought he could hit. Tiltheend lives in the area and holds a PB up that climb of ~30 min weighing ~64kg and putting out 301watts.

I'm waiting to see the actual power file. Though, after all of this, it makes me think, simply put that the dudes powermeter is miscalibrated. That could explain a lot. 5.8w/kg, based on what was covered in the liar, liar encyclopedia (too long to be a thread), should have resulted in a vast PB.

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE... (even the 280->340 time drop does not compute). My guess? Either he "thought" he averaged 358w (I don't know enough about the powertap to know how intervals work, so maybe he didn't hit the interval button, just guessed off the number he saw? Is there an interval button?). Or his powertap is broken. Or he is lying. Or the definitions of the physical world have changed...

EDIT: tiltheend does not live in the area, but those numbers were from a cyclist who does, and who posted that comment on the wattage forum on google.

Finally, somebody actually looking at the data and asking serious questions about some "inconsistencies" but also wanting to wait to see the power file. I agree. To bad KendallF's computer was down so he is unable to download and save his power file for the ride which could be used as a "reference" for the "accuracy" of Joaquin's power meter when he saw 340 watts. But, I don't see anyone calling him a liar even though his failure is almost identical to Joaquin's over a year ago.

I might add that about a month ago Joaquin thought he would be over 350 watts (on his powermeter) on this climb but not near 400 watts because he had lost some fitness due to his injury.

We should wait to see the power file and see what Joaquin says about the climb before conclusions are drawn.

Either way, we hope to get him tested at the Mapei center soon, and hopefully get it on video tape so everyone can "observe". This will put even more data into the ST furnace. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:45

Post #20 of 544 (27988 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE...

That's my fault..I couldn't remember his best time and was too lazy to look it up; I thought it was around 30. Tonight he just said he'd missed his best by about a minute. I was still down the climb huffing and puffing. I probably should've left the numbers out of the post entirely without the power file. Yes, the PT has an interval, and I saw that it was zeroed before we started.

When was the last time he did a "stomp test" (i.e. static torque test) on the thing?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:53

Post #21 of 544 (27975 views)

In Reply To:

To bad KendallF's computer was down so he is unable to download and save his power file for the ride which could be used as a "reference" for the "accuracy" of Joaquin's power meter when he saw 340 watts. But, I don't see anyone calling him a liar even though his failure is almost identical to Joaquin's over a year ago.

Hmmm...you really don't see the difference in the 2 situations? Interesting.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:16

Post #22 of 544 (27945 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

To bad KendallF's computer was down so he is unable to download and save his power file for the ride which could be used as a "reference" for the "accuracy" of Joaquin's power meter when he saw 340 watts. But, I don't see anyone calling him a liar even though his failure is almost identical to Joaquin's over a year ago.

Hmmm...you really don't see the difference in the 2 situations? Interesting.

LOL.

OK, here is the problem. I don't really see any advantage to me in inflating anything. All that means is I am risking getting "caught" doing so. I simply report what people tell me. And, I see little advantage to others in inflating what they have seen as we don't pay for results and all someone is likely to get, if they post here anyhow, is derision.

However, if KendallF, had an operating power meter during this ride, when he looked over and saw Joaquin's at 340 watts, he could have looked at his own and said, "mine was at 280 so I think his is not calibrated correctly", or said, "mine was at 360 so I think his is pretty close to what it was because it felt like 360 to me" or some such thing. All he said was "Just warming up on the way from Soto Del Real to Miraflores, I was pushing over threshold; I looked over at one point and Joaquin was showing 340 watts up a short climb. God knows what that meant for me as I'm carrying approximately 45 pounds more uphill." Now, if he were to tell us what his threshold is and how much over threshold he thought he was perhaps we will have a better idea as to what Joaquin was actually doing here, and later on in the climb, power wise.

Anyhow, it seems that it doesn't matter what Joaquin does, unless he comes here and confessed he made it all up and he and KendallF decided to perpetuate this fraud on the ST folks over that beer, it seems it will be controversial. Enjoy. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:40

Post #23 of 544 (27902 views)

"Why don't we wait until we see the power file and see what he says"

And when will we be seeing this? I think I'd like to see results, reporting either way (positively or negatively) on PC's.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:47

Post #24 of 544 (27892 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE...

That's my fault..I couldn't remember his best time and was too lazy to look it up; I thought it was around 30. Tonight he just said he'd missed his best by about a minute. I was still down the climb huffing and puffing. I probably should've left the numbers out of the post entirely without the power file. Yes, the PT has an interval, and I saw that it was zeroed before we started.

I actually mixed that up. 29:47 was from way back in the day.

It should have been:
280w = 30:14
340w = 27:40
358w = 1 min slower?? 31:00??

358w should have been, according to analytic cycling, another 75seconds faster. That's approximate, obviously. My bad on misreading the article. Which makes a 31 really slow... But what's really odd is that he was a minute slower, instead of 1:15 faster...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Last edited by: Rappstar: Oct 26, 07 16:47

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:51

Post #25 of 544 (27874 views)

As an aside, I think it is hilarious, and perhaps predictable given the way that everything has unfolded, that someone with a powermeter actually shows up to ride with Joaquin, and the battery is dead. Classic...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

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