The ad on ST guarantees one will take 30 minutes off their IM bike split. The fine print you have provided seems to say one will see 2 mph improvement over 10 k. Where is the 30 minutes off an IM bike split guarantee? That is what the ad says. Where is the meat? As you said: "Holy crap, are you kidding me?" Holy crap indeed batman.

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Ah, I see your problem. COMPUTRAINER HAS THE USER TESTING AT 10K INTERVALS. They are guaranteeing a 2mph increase, but not 2mph just for the 10k test. The 10k is only there to do benchmarks.

22.4 mph for an IM would give you a 5h split. 24.4 mph would give you a split just a hair over 4:30...4:36 I think. Regardless, as I said, let's get their inventor on here and ask them where their data comes from to make that guarantee. It seems possible, but tough. It would take a lot of work.

On a side note, keep this in mind: they guarantee a 2 mph increase over 5 months. They also give you a 12 month time frame. Do you see a difference between this claim and yours? Oh yeah, their claim is actually possible INSIDE the time limit! Your guarantee takes what, 9 months? You give someone 90 days? Oh wait, seeing the improvement you guarantee isn't possible inside the time frame.

The BIG difference is that someone can test their guarantee to full extent of it, and evaluate for themselves if it works. With your guarantee, they can try it for the first 90 days and hope that they improve/continue to improve to the point you claim for the next 6 months (after day 90 to the 9 month claim time it takes to see 40%).

Holy crap indeed catwoman.

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"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

One final point, then I am out for the night:

If you're really upset about the Computrainer claim, ask them about it. Not me. I would be MUCH more likely to take them up on their product based on the possibility of taking them up on their guarantee. If your guarantee was for 12 months, you might have sold me a pair....maybe. but when you make a claim that something takes 9 months (or whatever your claim is) and only give someone 90 days to evaluate, well, then the customer is SOL when the 9 months is up and don't get the results you guarantee.

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"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

No, I am not upset about their ad. You asked me for an example of another manufacturer with an "outrageous" claim. I consider a 30 minute IM bike split improvement guarantee to be pretty outrageous. I, at one time, considered a performance improvement guarantee, and decided the requirements required would be unworkable for us. At least CT has a built in method of documenting work done and performance improement. We don't. 30 minutes isn't much if you are currently at a 7 hour split. It is a lot if you are at 5:30. I decided on a satisfaction guarantee instead.

3 months is plenty for our users to understand the potential of the product. Ask any of them. You wouldn't know because you, apparently, haven't used it. Read the what I say and claim. I don't guarantee a specific result in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, or forever. I suggest what our typical new user will see after one season with them. But, I only guarantee they will be happy with the the cost benefit relationship they see in the product within 3 months. If they think their benefits are not going to live up to my "claims" or to their expectation based upon my claims within three months they have risked essentially nothing. That doesn't seem so outrageous to me.

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Frank:

Fair enough. Thanks.

--Robert

I let this thread run up a couple hundred posts before I picked it up again today. The sudden spike told me everything I needed to know... a faked file somehow showed up. And then I open up the thread and EXACTLY what I expected. This is as predictable as Melrose Place. And that data is clearly maipulated, and NOT the fault of the PT.

Is there ANYONE else who didn't think this would be the result weeks ago when we were waiting for the file???

MOST____CLASSIC_____THREAD_____EVER!!!

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

For once I'm going to stop hassling you on this. Let me ask you something that isn't a loaded question: How are these MTBers using PC's? And are they sponsored or did they pick them up on their own? Also, do they have any data at all (I know it can be touch for MTB data since power is tough/impossible to get accurately off-road with consistency)? If they don't have power data I wouldn't be surprised at all, and it'd be NO knock on your part all for them.


Kiara Bissaro
Ryder Hesjedal
Andreas Hestler
Geoff Kabush
Steve Larsen
Ned Overend
Chrissy Redden
Peter WedgeI have a lot of respect for what all of these people can do on a MTB, and I'd like to know what they think. I already watched the interview you had with Conrad, thanks for that. I'm hoping to see him next season and actually talk to him a bit as well. One of the guys on my team knows him fairly well, so I bet I could steal a little of his time.

As much as I hassle you (and especially Dave), if Ned, Geoff, Steve, and Conrad all say PC's helped them, by golly, I might be persuaded to at least give them a shot!

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"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

I don't mean to pile on but if this is the "most classic thread ever", it's a sign of how slowtwitch is co-dependent with powercranks....

the evening starts merrily with a quick round at the ST bar, but somehow there's always time for another round and somebody insists on toasting powercranks... before you know it, bar stools and bottles are flying,...

and yet, the ST bar opens right back up for business in the morning... and there's a guy in his wrestling shorts slowly waking up at the end of the bar claiming 40% power increase, and across the room, there's another dude who stirs and shouts "no way" as he bolts up and hits his head on the underside of a table ... but if you ask either of them to explain what the other is saying, they just give you a blank look, shake their head and order another drink...

maybe it is the most classic thread ever!

---

gotrime
-
the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step or swim or bike

Huh? Frank, the average power number which you say isn't "suspect" is created DIRECTLY from the values in the file which are obviously false. How can the individual data points be "suspect", yet the average of those values NOT be "suspect"? Look at this plot and tell me that it's not obvious that the power data isn't fudged with the blatant "cut and pasting" and repetition of power sequences. In fact, the beginning sequence is EXACTLY repeated at around minute 368 with the huge power spike up to EXACTLY 539 watts:




You also hang your hat on the fact that the overall distance is correct. Well, what happens if we calculate the apparent speed values by simply taking the distance increment recorded every 1.26s and multipy by 3600/1.26 to get km/hr? Here it is:



Look at that. Besides the long periods of EXACTLY constant speeds, the first few minutes of the file show multiple step changes in velocity between EXACTLY 25.71 km/hr and 17.41 km/hr in 1.26s!

BUT, and this is what you want us to believe, that data is no good, but somehow the averages are miraculously correct? Are you serious??

So, let's summarize:
1. The power data is obviously false and "cut and pasted"...yet the average is somehow OK because it's close to what he said it would be?
2. The speed calculated from the distance data requires massive step changes in velocity...yet the average is OK?
3. The speed data recorded in the file doesn't come close to matching the distance data recorded, even though both are calculated from the same internal signal in the PT hub...yet the distance is OK?
4. The data summary from downloading the head unit (as reported by Joaquin on 10/28) doesn't match the summary from this file...yet it's from the same file, right? So the problem is in the hub or the head unit? Really? How does that work?
5. As far as we know, the only person who has had access to this file prior to it's dissemination is Joaquin. That seems to cut down the possible "suspects" pretty quickly.




How about someone trying to come up with a file that gives an average power and distance that they said it should have, yet not being "savvy" enough to realize that the way they are going about it would be VERY easy to be detected? No need to figure out any Machiavellian intent when simple incompetence will suffice.




Oh, I'm SURE you wish it would just be left alone and discarded. The problem is, it clearly demonstrates unethical actions...in many ways. No proof? See summary above.

BTW, you keep using that word "corrupted" hoping that it will catch on (and since it must make you feel better.) In the words of another Spaniard, Inigo Montoya:

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I don't have a clue how each of these people actually use them. I know they all have and I suspect some use them much more than others. As I remember, each of them asked us to get on them, we don't force the cranks on anyone. As a pro each would have gotten a reduced "sponsorship" price and a few may have gotten a free set (used to do that in the old days).

I believe Conrad uses them a lot, as he said on his video interview done last summer. He continues to do so.

Steve got on them because he was told about them by Greg Lemond. I got a phone call one day saying something like "This is Steve Larsen and I have heard about your product and would like to try them" I believe he used them exclusively for about 3 months until MTB season started. What he told me was it was a week before he started referrring to me by terms found in the dictionary and he called Greg at least twice that first week and Greg told him to just stay with them. Once the season started he told me he dropped to twice a week on them "because I can't do my recovery rides on them yet, these are not recovery for me". It was when he started seeing his running improve that he started to think about doing triathlon. I am not sure he thought we helped his riding much (he was pretty good before us) but I know he thought we did big things for his running. Steve was one of the few pros who used these enough in the early days that he could have raced on them without losing anything. Of course, he never did. Another story about Steve is his coach was Max Testa. We made an appointment to go show the cranks to Max after he came to Davis. After we made the appointment he picked up the phone and called Steve and asked him if he knew anything about these things called PowerCranks. Steve told him he had been using them for about 3 weeks and they were great. Because of that when we showed up Max picked up the phone and called Mapei and told them they needed to take a look at these. We sent them 5 pair. That is when Bettini got on them. They gave him a pair to evaluate and when they asked for them back he refused to give them back, or so we were told.

Geoff Kabush was probably our first mountainbiker on them. He has been on them about 6 years. I suspect he uses them a lot as his coach (Herb Chlebek) sells a lot of these things for us. He surprised everyone and made it to the Olympics that first year after he got on them and has continued to do pretty well.

All I know about Ned is he came by our booth at Sea Otter about 5 years ago and said he had written a book and would like to try these. A year ago in Kona he wandered by our booth and was commenting to someone else how good they were. I got the impression he rode them perhaps 50% of the time but I didn't talk with him directly about his experience. It was clear he still used them.

I know almost nothing about the others except they have (or had) a pair. Most of these people are Canadians and the Canadian National Cycling coaches are big fans.

Anyhow, you are welcome to talk to any of them if you get a chance.

Of course, probably none of the people mentioned above saw a 40% power improvement - proving again my marketing is all hype. :-)

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Actually, I don't care if you keep bringing it up. I had nothing to do with it so, however the corruption of this data occurred it doesn't reflect on me. The file is obviously corrupted and is pretty much worthless in proving how much power he sustained on this climb. That was the question as I remember it, not whether Joaquin is some sort of criminal or not.

Anyhow, thanks for the analysis.

---

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

 In the words of another Spaniard, Inigo Montoya:
[/reply]

---

__________________________________________________

Fail to Prepare, Prepare to Fail

Brandon, you really should give it a try. Meaning, what do you have to lose? You can try them for 3 months, (or less),
and find they do nothing for you, are terrible, and really let Frank and I have it since you would have tried. Or, ...

Now, I just did my first long hilly ride on the PC's yesterday. Rode 20 miles around the lake in the hills for 1:20. I was pretty impressed
I could do it. So, the more I use, the more confidence, and skill, I have using them. (Still have not tried to get out
of the saddle with them) Now, Franks "data" says most folks need to use
for a long time before they would see biking time improvements. Well, 2 months is not a long time. So again, I will continue to give
them a honest effort for the off season. This is giving me some reasons to get on the bike, since I do want to be able to say after
next season if they seemed to help me or not. I want to put this to bed once and for all for me.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dude, this thread isn't about you. Go away. You'd never admit it if they didn't "work" for you anyway because you'd still find a way in your subconscious to think they did (as evidenced by your insistence that they've worked so far). Again, beat it.

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Sorry, not going anywhere. This is about PC's, I use them, and will continue to give my opinion.

Clearly you have not seen the post where I was asked what I stopped using, and the post with
all the stuff I got rid of. Was interesting the person who accused me that I had never stopped
using stuff never replied to that response to him.

Anyway, have you ever tried them?

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

what do you have to lose?

1. Access to just under $1000 until you can get the refund.
2. Valuable training time wasted on a product that provides no verifiable benefit.
3. Hassle of installation, adaption/learning curve, removal, package, etc.

Well, 2 months is not a long time. So again, I will continue to give
them a honest effort for the off season.

In other words, you need more than 90 days to see if they're worth it.\

Franks done more in this thread than anyone could have to make me less interested in powercranks.

Corrupted implies (to me) that something just went bad. I would use the term "tampered with" or "manipulated", which indeed reflects poorly on you for a couple reasons 1) was it not you that last had the file and passed it on to someone else?, and 2) this is the nth time you've had a chance to "prove" something and come up booooooooooooone dry with yet another fishy excuse (alone, it's not enough to convict, but combined with the other "mishaps" such as the chick showing up on the wrong day, etc., it all fits a pattern).

My advice to you... if you are going to try and "prove" anything in the future here, make D*MN sure it holds water first.

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Lets see. For me, in 1 month I was running faster than before. That is all I need to have it worth it.
If my bike gets stronger, that will be icing on the cake.

When I was hurt during the summer, they saved my season since I was not able to do any run training.
They allowed me to compete and helped me qualify for 2 worlds. Again, they were worth every dollar.

They are very easy to put on and off, if you work on your bike.

Nope, if you give them a month, IMO, you will know if you think they are worth anymore effort on them.

The more folks who have never tried them say they can not work, the more I want to put more miles on them.
I now might even give them a try on my really hilly 30 mile loop. I want to see how much slower I will be.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"For me, in 1 month I was running faster than before. That is all I need to have it worth it"

Not to mention the fact that you doubled your average training load as well. Convenient fact to leave out.

"If my bike gets stronger, that will be icing on the cake"

A BIG "if" right now. See my sig line. You are saying that with no basis whatsoever. It's like me saying, "Man do I love to eat cake, now if eating cake makes me faster on the bike, well that will just be the sh!t!"

"When I was hurt during the summer, they saved my season since I was not able to do any run training"

Your run training has only averaged about 4 miles per week less than the last 2 years.

"They allowed me to compete and helped me qualify for 2 worlds. Again, they were worth every dollar"

Again, you don't know if it was the PC's, the increased swimming, or the DOUBLED TRAINING LOAD. Dave, ONE LAST TIME, DO NOT STATE SOMETHING HELPED IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF IT DID OR NOT. Let's also remember that your race times were slower in 2007 than in 2006.....

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"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Suggestion...

Just for fun, see if you can do five posts in a row without using the word ' I '.

Even if Frank says this doesn't bother him, it does.

What percentage of his waking hours over the last few days has he spent defending himself and his product in this thread?

All my race times were slower. Guess you did not look at them all.

And, I believe you posted things change. So, what was more important to me,
independent of times, is I won my AG in most races I did, I moved up in relative position,
my USAT ranking went way up, (I guess everyone else get much slower than me).

The only thing I changed in the last 2 months is about 5 hours a week on the PC's, and a reduction
of swimming 25%.

I was thinking. Never ever would I spend my time attacking a product and others for something I NEVER tried.
I wonder what our personality expert on ST has to say about folks who do this. I know I sure have my opinion,
but not being an expert in this field, I will keep to myself.

So, all the folks who have never tried them are right. I guess you are trying to save the world getting us to stop using
them and save us from the evil Frank. Again, everyone just is helping me keep more focus on seeing what happens
using them for a long period of time. Since I have nothing left in this sport that I really need to achieve, this is actually
more fun to focus on.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Why? Are you reading half empty into my poor writing skills?

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Brandon, you really should give it a try"

I wasn't asking you.

"Meaning, what do you have to lose?"

Access to $1000. installation/removal time. wasted 90 days of training. Should I continue?

"You can try them for 3 months, (or less), and find they do nothing for you, are terrible, and really let Frank and I have it since you would have tried"

Why would I let you have it? I wouldn't be taking your advice if I got them or not, since I'm not asking you nor talking to you until you pipe in. If I were to get them and return them, I'd be VERY hush hush about it because I wouldn't want people to know I bought into the hype.

"Now, I just did my first long hilly ride on the PC's yesterday"

I don't care.

"Rode 20 miles around the lake in the hills for 1:20"

I don't care.

"I was pretty impressed I could do it"

It's never anything other than "I, I, I" with you. I don't care.

"So, the more I use, the more confidence, and skill, I have using them"

Shocking. You do something, you get better at it. Wow, ground breaking stuff here. Although again, I don't care.

"Still have not tried to get out of the saddle with them"

Still, I don't care.

"Now, Franks "data" says most folks need to use for a long time before they would see biking time improvements"

I'm glad you put "data" in quotation marks. Calling it "data" is almost a farce there, Dave. Have you actually seen Frank's "data"?

"Well, 2 months is not a long time"

Depends on the context. Ask something in a POW camp and I bet 2 months is a long time ;-)

"So again, I will continue to give them a honest effort for the off season"

I don't care. And even more, again if I were Frank I'd be asking you to pipe down with your PC praise, since you don't seem to have improved your race times and have actually gotten a little slower in 2007. Now, since you are a VERY VOCAL PC user, and are getting slower despite more aero stuff, I'd be a bit embarrassed.

"This is giving me some reasons to get on the bike, since I do want to be able to say after next season if they seemed to help me or not"

Again, I don't care. BUT, I do think it's funny how you pipe up about the 90 day guarantee but are giving them a year to see if they work....my point exactly.

"I want to put this to bed once and for all for me"

Dave, so far everything you've said about getting faster and PC's helping I disproved in a matter of seconds based on your training log. How will you know if PC's helped if you don't control the variables? I tell you how: you'll justify just about anything to yourself without any information to back it up.

But, if you talk to Frank, thank him for me. Your ignorance on this was enough to help me reconsider my purchase, and him allowing you to go on and on about PC's helped me to make my choice. I honestly last night was figuring out how I was going to get a pair without people knowing so I could train in peace and report back 90 days later. But the way you have been brainwashed on PC's scares the sh!t out of me, and helped me to realize I'm not ready nor willing to join the ranks of you. So thank you for saving me $1000 and preventing me from drinking the Kool Aid and becoming one of the irrationally devoted PC users.

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"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

"And, I believe you posted things change. So, what was more important to me, independent of times, is I won my AG in most races I did, I moved up in relative position, my USAT ranking went way up, (I guess everyone else get much slower than me)"

Dave, I think you are missing my point. I don't doubt that these things changed. BUT KEEP IN MIND YOU ALSO DOUBLED YOUR TRAINING VOLUME IN 2007 VS. 2005 AND ALMOST DOUBLED VS 2006. To account your increased placing solely to PC's is outrageous!

"The only thing I changed in the last 2 months is about 5 hours a week on the PC's, and a reduction of swimming 25%"

But the 8 months before the last 2 also included double your normal training volume.

"Never ever would I spend my time attacking a product and others for something I NEVER tried"

No, you wouldn't. But again, I'm not attacking you or the product, just the claim of how well it works. But, what you WOULD do is defend a product that you HAVE NO IDEA IF IT HELPED OR NOT.

"I wonder what our personality expert on ST has to say about folks who do this"

That they don't blindly buy into marketing claims?

"I know I sure have my opinion"

You always do.

"but not being an expert in this field, I will keep to myself"

I find that IMPOSSIBLE to believe. If you keep something to yourself it will be a FIRST.

"So, all the folks who have never tried them are right"

Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. The point we are making is that Frank doesn't have any proof behind his claims.

"I guess you are trying to save the world getting us to stop using them and save us from the evil Frank"

I couldn't care less if you used them. hell, use 'em 19 hours/day for all I care. Just understand that when you double your training volume you haven't controlled the variables and you have no idea why you got faster (if you did)

"Again, everyone just is helping me keep more focus on seeing what happens using them for a long period of time"

Here we go again, "it's all Dave, all the time!" (TM). But this is good, does this mean you now are tracking power numbers to see if you get stronger? are you going to control the variables now (training volume, type, etc. consistent testing methods, etc.)? If not, don't bother us with your "data" when you have this "long period of time" under your belt.

"Since I have nothing left in this sport that I really need to achieve, this is actually more fun to focus on"

Good! I'm glad we've given you motivation to train. But again, I don't care.

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"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08