Let's see how they swim in the longer stuff like the 800 and 1500. But, I agree....no T.I. or Steve Tarpinian stuff, so far. Those cats hit the water and GO.

Waterlogged Kahuna

I think TI is more of a way to get those of us who aren't part fish to swim in a relaxed way that will save us some energy on long swims. It certainly doesn't teach you to sprint.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

That's a good point. It will be interesting to see how the techniques change.

It is unfathomable that a man can swim as fast as these guys. They are very impressive.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

in the longer races the swimmers tend to have higher stroke rates for a length. that is more strokes taken per 50 or something. especially girls.

what is the total immersion way?

Tom, They all look very horizontal in the water. I'm guessing they have all swam so much they don't think much about pressing the "T".

"It is unfathomable that a man can swim as fast as these guys"

I used to swim with a future Navy SEAL and water polo player while I was in college. Now he was nowhwere near as fast as these guys, and he looked like he had a motor on him. I've never seen anyone go so fast and make it look so easy in my life.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I am impressed, humbled, and envious of it all, but what got my attention a few days ago was the rapidity (ferocity?) of Jodie Henry's kick in the final leg of the women's freestyle relay.

yeah, the thing with stroke rates, swim golf, etc is analagous to cadence rates/watts/HR on the bike...that is, all that matters is how fast you go.

Again with biking, if Bjorn turns over 70rpm, and Lance does 110...who cares so long as they go fast? Same with the Olympic swimmers.

Through some serious coaching my stroke rate is faster, and more powerful. So I can now swim faster, and I can do it for longer.

Still f**** crap compared to those folks though.

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kiwipat

per ardua ad astra

They also look like they are going so fast that they look like boats that have "planed" in the water.

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"One thing I have found there are just two ways to go
It all comes down to livin' fast or dyin' slow"- Robert Earlk Keen Jr.

[quote] I am impressed, humbled, and envious of it all, but what got my attention a few days ago was the rapidity (ferocity?) of Jodie Henry's kick in the final leg of the women's freestyle relay.[/quote]

I'm glad I'm not the only one, I was totally amazed by just how fast and hard she was kicking...

I'm also not so sure that people swimming 1500m would look THAT different from these (aka, non-TI), if I remember correctly the WR for 1500m is in the low 14:00 and it's not like IMHO you can do that time by 'pressing your buoy' and 'gliding'

there is FQ pulling. and the fastest swimmers glide long



not a TI fan here...but it did help me come back after 10 years out. I'd recommed it to anyone starting out. these swimmers are a whole other level...it's not a fair comparison.

Did you also notice the absence of bilateral breathing? More than a few also take a breath every stroke.

TI is good for focusing those who came late to the lap swim gig on good habits.

I don't really do any set T.I. or swim power thing, but I think the main point with either of them is to get good enough to swim relatively fast, for a triathlete, and be able to not blow up on the bike or be trashed for the run. Gliding, 2-beat (as opposed to the 6-beat stuff those guys are doing) and pressing the T is all a way to burn less energy while going faster in the water and having enough left to kick it biking and running.

"You can't win an Ironman during the swim, but you sure can make sure you lose it" (Mark Allen)

IM Historian Kahuna

They are very fast; the first three guys in the 200 Free today would have beaten the captain of my high school team by more than five seconds.

Yes, TI is a coaching technique to teach non-swimmers how to swim. Forget looking for such parallels in Olympic class swimmers, their speed and power puts them into another level where the technique required is different. Actually, it is the other way around really, they are strong enough and fast enough to use correct "speed" technique to help them go even faster. TI is about fundamentals, getting "feel" for the water, these guys just "shove" the water, they aquired the "feel" along time ago, when they were probably 8 years of age.

Watch Grant Hackett in the 1500m and you still wont see TI techniques used, what Hackett will do over 1500m (around 58.6s/100m) would still mean sprinting for all but the elite, though I doubt he'll be using a 6 beat kick all the way.

That "feel" for the water is what amazes me most. I'm pretty comfortable in the water, but these guys just seem to be operating in a different fluid. They float better, move better, they're in a different world.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

A human is still only, like, 9% as efficient in the water as a dolphin or seal is. As a species, we basically suck in the liquid medium :-)) But, hey......dolphins can't do an Ironman, can they? So, we've got that, I suppose......

Hydrodynamic Kahuna

Tom, --These guys hit the water and pull. There is some pretty pronounced body roll, but they aren;t --"pressing the T" or any of that. They don't need to worry about it for 2 reasons, they already have very good body position and at the speed that they are going, it's like hydroplaning.

--And their turnover is like lightening. It has an odd, 1-2, pause, 1-2, pause, 1-2, pause rythm to --their stroke. Just like in running, if you want to go fast you have to have turnover, you can only pull so much water. With regards to the 1-2, pause, rhythm - The pause is obviously the breath and yes they almost all breathe to one side and breathe every stroke. I think you will see more bilateral breathing in the WM 800 and the Men 1500. You will also see, breath patterns like 2,2,3,2,2,3 and other variations. If you watch the 50 you won't see any "loping" at all. Most of these guys are only taking 1-2 breaths for the whole 50 because it is mainly about turnover.

--They really do reach though, super long reach.

--Have you seen there hands underwater? It is like Doug Stern says, they just put their hand in the --water and pull. Think about these 2 statements, they don't just put their hand in the water and pull they are reaching, and that reach is a bit of a glide. I wish they would show more underwater video, then you can really see what they are doing. Especially with regards to their pull length and elbow position during the pull. Ed[/reply]

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LLLEEEEEEEEEEEERRRROOOYYY JEEENNNNNKKKIIINNNNNS!!!

Your point was covered exactly by Shelia T's articles on the ST's Swim Center a couple years ago. Excellent, excellent advice.

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Actually, Phelps has a long slow stroke, lots of roll. Watch his turnover. Count his strokes per 50 meter length. Thorpe is also pretty slow in his turnover and a fair amount of roll.

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

I understand they're sprinting, etc. But it would seem that the "most efficient" head position should be the same whether you're sprinting or gliding. TI says water should be passing over the back of your head. None of the Olympic people are doing that. Phelps had the water hitting him smack in the middle of his forehead.



B.

Has anyone seen Richard Quick's (Stanford women's coach, multi-time women's Olympic coach) video series? I've been using his freestyle video for my clinics and masters sessions this year. He offers an excellent description of front quadrant swimming and I saw a brief underwater shot of Thorpe during the 400 as he put it into practice.

What struck me was how quickly he goes from full arm extension to CATCH and set up the pull for the rest of the stroke. The transition from arm extended, hand flat, to arm extended, hand pointed rearward, high elbow is nearly instantaneous. I attempted to duplicate this in my swim today and, while I did go a bit faster, it was also obvious how much power it takes to swim like this.

I also counted 28 strokes on some of his 50's, which were at about 28 sec pace? So today I was doing 100m on the 1:30, holding 1:23-24 and would count 28 strokes and look for the wall. I was a good 12 strokes out and a full 14 secs slower than Thorpe for a 50 :-)

As impressive as this stuff looks on TV it doesn't compare to seeing it live. You get a true appreciation for the speed and fluidity when you are forced to walk briskly on the pool deck to keep up with these guys.

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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Its about creating a bow wave and surfing it. Faster speeds require different techniques.

watch popov in 100 free. he has an amazing feel for the water. his stroke rate is like 30 for first 50 of 100 free too........