IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship"

Jul 1, 19 6:46

Post #1 of 30 (7599 views)

Just my opinion. Not trying to throw shade on any athlete(s) who have qualified for the race, but is this really a Championship race when pros can finish 20+, 30+ minutes after the winer and still claim a spot. Same goes for amateurs. Have seen posts where the roll down goes to 40th or 50th+ in the their AG to get a spot.

On the pro side, I think the problem is Kona - a lot of the top tier athletes don't want to ruin their Kona by adding a 70.3 one month out. I get that. Maybe they should move it to earlier in the season (or later like in 2020 - November I think). To me it just takes a lot of the allure away from a Championship race when there are "pros" racing that get beat by amateurs every race.

On the amateur side I think it takes away from the race as well having athletes who finish hours behind the winning time in their AG to claim a spot.

Again, not trying to discredit any athletes accomplishments or qualification for the race. But at what point is the "Championship" aspect lost? Same goes for Kona with all of the legacy, foundation and freebie spots given away these days. Don't even get me started on this years "AWA Championship" - what bullshit.

Okay Monday rant done, just curious on everyone's thoughts about the 70.3 Championship in particular.

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 6:51

Post #2 of 30 (7565 views)

erengel23 wrote:

JI think the problem is Kona - a lot of the top tier athletes don't want to ruin their Kona by adding a 70.3 one month out.

most pros doing kona do a 70.3 about a month out...on purpose.

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 6:58

Post #3 of 30 (7534 views)

But there is a difference between doing a 70.3 and trying to win 70.3 worlds. We saw what happened to Frodo last year when he had to push ridiculously hard at 70.3 worlds.

Also in response to Eric, I think it's kind of supposed to be a watered down version of Kona. And I think that's fine. It gives people something to shoot for even if they might not have a chance at Kona at any point. Now personally, I've never grown up wanting to race Kona or had a Kona-lust like many people I know, but 70.3 worlds will provide a Kona like experience for a wider range of athletes. Not necessarily a bad thing. My 2nd 70.3 ever was Chattanooga worlds and it was an awesome experience.

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Last edited by: realbdeal: Jul 1, 19 7:01

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 7:01

Post #4 of 30 (7510 views)

fair enough - the rolldown system if definitely imperfect. but how else would you do it?

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 7:02

Post #5 of 30 (7493 views)

Quote:

But there is a difference between doing a 70.3 and trying to win 70.3 worlds.

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 7:08

Post #6 of 30 (7468 views)

erengel23 wrote:

Pros can finish 20+, 30+ minutes after the winer and still claim a spot
Have seen posts where the roll down goes to 40th or 50th+ in the their AG to get a spot
Pros racing that get beat by amateurs every race
Athletes who finish hours behind the winning time in their AG to claim a spot

These seem like massive outlier cases or fringe examples. I cannot seriously imagine that an amateur finishing "hours" behind a winning AG time would be in the top 100 AG. I have seen one case where a 48th AG got a slot (and probably a few further out), but that was when the WC was in South Africa-- a pretty difficult travel race. Nice and Chattanooga were a different story. In general, if you objectively looked at the data, the WC field is largely made up of the top 10% of AG (probably better) with maybe a tiny few outliers.

Many of the races only have 1 pro slot. So, those are pretty limited. Maybe a few roll down, but again, that has to be a bit of an outlier.

Finally, I cannot imagine there are (m)any examples of a pro in the WC that has lost to top amateurs routinely. Again, that is a fringe case, and the field is likely made up largely of the very best pros in the world.

Look at the pros and amateurs in the Augusta golf tournament. I bet the caliber of that event is similar to the 70.3 and 140.6 WC events.

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 7:14

Post #7 of 30 (7437 views)

Well last year’s 70.3 WC was incredible. Brownlee, Frodo, Gomez and Kanute absolutely threw down. I think the race is underrated because IM had technical difficulties with the video feed due to weather or signal transmission or whatever.

I miss the days when athletes would win at 70.3 WC and Kona in the same year. I always thought that was just a massive show of force, lol.

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 7:22

Post #8 of 30 (7396 views)

I agree about 2017 70.3 Worlds - It was my only 70.3 Championship and it was an awesome event!

I don't think the inclusion of some of the middle of the pack amateurs and pros takes anything away from the front of the race at all - still just as exciting.

Only suggestion for roll down would be to make it a % off the winners time (for pros that is). Amateurs I think you'd have to leave it the way it is. When the race is back in the US, rolldowns are not an issue at all.

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 7:27

Post #9 of 30 (7365 views)

exxxviii wrote:

erengel23 wrote:

Pros can finish 20+, 30+ minutes after the winer and still claim a spot
Have seen posts where the roll down goes to 40th or 50th+ in the their AG to get a spot
Pros racing that get beat by amateurs every race
Athletes who finish hours behind the winning time in their AG to claim a spot

These seem like massive outlier cases or fringe examples. I cannot seriously imagine that an amateur finishing "hours" behind a winning AG time would be in the top 100 AG. I have seen one case where a 48th AG got a slot (and probably a few further out), but that was when the WC was in South Africa-- a pretty difficult travel race. Nice and Chattanooga were a different story. In general, if you objectively looked at the data, the WC field is largely made up of the top 10% of AG (probably better) with maybe a tiny few outliers.

Many of the races only have 1 pro slot. So, those are pretty limited. Maybe a few roll down, but again, that has to be a bit of an outlier.

Finally, I cannot imagine there are (m)any examples of a pro in the WC that has lost to top amateurs routinely. Again, that is a fringe case, and the field is likely made up largely of the very best pros in the world.

Look at the pros and amateurs in the Augusta golf tournament. I bet the caliber of that event is similar to the 70.3 and 140.6 WC events.

I agree with the location of the 70.3 Event. Once back in the US - roll downs don't seem to go very far. A middle of the pack pro (top 10-15) at most races usually gets beat by a handful of age groupers.

Augusta is a very event compared to IRONMAN, but I get the point. I don't think have slower athletes in a race takes away anything from the front (or excitement) of the race. I guess it was just more of the thinking that to get to a championship race, you should be championship caliber is all. But in today's sports world, inclusion is everything.

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 7:52

Post #10 of 30 (7274 views)

There's also the location, travel time, and logistics you have to take into account. If the race was in North America this year, it would be a different story.

How many top pro's and AG'ers who want to podium in Kona are also racing 70.3 worlds this year? I can't imagine there is many.

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 8:01

Post #11 of 30 (7215 views)

exxxviii wrote:

erengel23 wrote:

Pros can finish 20+, 30+ minutes after the winer and still claim a spot
Have seen posts where the roll down goes to 40th or 50th+ in the their AG to get a spot
Pros racing that get beat by amateurs every race
Athletes who finish hours behind the winning time in their AG to claim a spot

These seem like massive outlier cases or fringe examples. I cannot seriously imagine that an amateur finishing "hours" behind a winning AG time would be in the top 100 AG. I have seen one case where a 48th AG got a slot (and probably a few further out), but that was when the WC was in South Africa-- a pretty difficult travel race. Nice and Chattanooga were a different story. In general, if you objectively looked at the data, the WC field is largely made up of the top 10% of AG (probably better) with maybe a tiny few outliers.

Many of the races only have 1 pro slot. So, those are pretty limited. Maybe a few roll down, but again, that has to be a bit of an outlier.

Finally, I cannot imagine there are (m)any examples of a pro in the WC that has lost to top amateurs routinely. Again, that is a fringe case, and the field is likely made up largely of the very best pros in the world.

Look at the pros and amateurs in the Augusta golf tournament. I bet the caliber of that event is similar to the 70.3 and 140.6 WC events.

Maybe true for south africa, but nice is the perfect holiday destination. I come fresh out of IM frankfurt slot allocation, and they had 100 nice slots, you could just practically get one if you wanted, and i have seen this before in other racea too. If you want to go, plan smart and you are in

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 8:05

Post #12 of 30 (7185 views)

Slots to Nice were certainly competitive. It took me 3 tries to get mine. First two attempts I came DAMN close (within 1-2 places of the slots). It took my third try at Eagleman where there were more slots available (40 vs 30), and thanks to being a late qualifier enough people weren't interested in planning a short notice international trip (or had their slots already).

That said, in general the slots didn't roll TOO far into the absurd territory.

It was easier to get the slot to last year's WC just because of location.

My experience at the WC in Chatt was certainly that the cream of the crop was there, but there was also a small percentage of people who found themselves with slots from far away countries thanks to deep rolldowns and difficulty of getting to Chattanooga from wherever it was they lived. I saw nothing wrong with those people grabbing a slot to experience a big show like this.

On the pro side, I see plenty of top pros there crushing the WC for the win, and turning around to try to crush Kona also. Ryf is a perfect and obvious example.

So I am not entirely sure what the entire point of this thread is other than to stir shit up a bit?

Last edited by: g_lev: Jul 1, 19 8:07

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 8:06

Post #13 of 30 (7178 views)

In 2011 Crowie won both 70.3 Worlds and Kona
In 2015 Frodeno won both 70.3 Worlds and Kona
Kienle has shown incredible consistent at racing both events

History shows that the best athletes can handle the travel and racing of 70.3 and worlds....

realbdeal wrote:

But there is a difference between doing a 70.3 and trying to win 70.3 worlds. We saw what happened to Frodo last year when he had to push ridiculously hard at 70.3 worlds.
.

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 8:06

Post #14 of 30 (7173 views)

erengel23 wrote:

exxxviii wrote:

erengel23 wrote:

Pros can finish 20+, 30+ minutes after the winer and still claim a spot
Have seen posts where the roll down goes to 40th or 50th+ in the their AG to get a spot
Pros racing that get beat by amateurs every race
Athletes who finish hours behind the winning time in their AG to claim a spot

These seem like massive outlier cases or fringe examples. I cannot seriously imagine that an amateur finishing "hours" behind a winning AG time would be in the top 100 AG. I have seen one case where a 48th AG got a slot (and probably a few further out), but that was when the WC was in South Africa-- a pretty difficult travel race. Nice and Chattanooga were a different story. In general, if you objectively looked at the data, the WC field is largely made up of the top 10% of AG (probably better) with maybe a tiny few outliers.

Many of the races only have 1 pro slot. So, those are pretty limited. Maybe a few roll down, but again, that has to be a bit of an outlier.

Finally, I cannot imagine there are (m)any examples of a pro in the WC that has lost to top amateurs routinely. Again, that is a fringe case, and the field is likely made up largely of the very best pros in the world.

Look at the pros and amateurs in the Augusta golf tournament. I bet the caliber of that event is similar to the 70.3 and 140.6 WC events.

I agree with the location of the 70.3 Event. Once back in the US - roll downs don't seem to go very far. A middle of the pack pro (top 10-15) at most races usually gets beat by a handful of age groupers.

Augusta is a very event compared to IRONMAN, but I get the point. I don't think have slower athletes in a race takes away anything from the front (or excitement) of the race. I guess it was just more of the thinking that to get to a championship race, you should be championship caliber is all. But in today's sports world, inclusion is everything.

well IM is a business. businesses don't generally do very well with an exclusion policy.

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [g_lev] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 8:19

Post #15 of 30 (7115 views)

g_lev wrote:

Slots to Nice were certainly competitive. It took me 3 tries to get mine. First two attempts I came DAMN close (within 1-2 places of the slots). It took my third try at Eagleman where there were more slots available (40 vs 30), and thanks to being a late qualifier enough people weren't interested in planning a short notice international trip (or had their slots already).

That said, in general the slots didn't roll TOO far into the absurd territory.

It was easier to get the slot to last year's WC just because of location.

My experience at the WC in Chatt was certainly that the cream of the crop was there, but there was also a small percentage of people who found themselves with slots from far away countries thanks to deep rolldowns and difficulty of getting to Chattanooga from wherever it was they lived. I saw nothing wrong with those people grabbing a slot to experience a big show like this.

On the pro side, I see plenty of top pros there crushing the WC for the win, and turning around to try to crush Kona also. Ryf is a perfect and obvious example.

So I am not entirely sure what the entire point of this thread is other than to stir shit up a bit?

So I am not entirely sure what the entire point of this thread is other than to stir shit up a bit? Isn't that the point of a forum? Have a discussion on opinions?

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 8:51

Post #16 of 30 (7021 views)

It took me 3 attempts to qualify for Nice, in each event I was no more than 15 minutes behind 1st place in my Age Group. I eventually qualified at IM70.3 European Championships in Elsinore, where I got the last slot with a time of 4h28m in AG45-49. I may not be an uber athlete aiming for a podium, however, I am consistently in the top 10%. Yes there are some softer races, and the 70.3 world Championship is easier to qualify than Kona, however, most people on the start line will be the best in their age group, and most will have worked really hard to get there

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 9:23

Post #17 of 30 (6912 views)

^ agree.

As a side- do we know the pro start list for Nice yet (or any who will be at the start line)?

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 9:47

Post #18 of 30 (6857 views)

So how do you feel about this? 500 extra slots for women...

https://www.endurancebusiness.com/...-world-championship/

Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Jul 1, 19 9:48

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [g_lev] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 9:58

Post #19 of 30 (6823 views)

g_lev wrote:

So I am not entirely sure what the entire point of this thread is other than to stir shit up a bit?

Ding!

It's like claiming that you're only worth your salt if you bother to do the 50mi British TT championship and not the 25 or the 10 instead. You can see a 70.3 as an entirely different race.

Why not pare down the US Open golf to just the top 20 players for a shootout? Don't want guys there who will finish 20 shots off the lead! Oh wait, that's right......an amateur has won it at least 8 times. Shucks.

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 10:12

Post #20 of 30 (6764 views)

burnthesheep wrote:

g_lev wrote:

So I am not entirely sure what the entire point of this thread is other than to stir shit up a bit?

Ding!

It's like claiming that you're only worth your salt if you bother to do the 50mi British TT championship and not the 25 or the 10 instead. You can see a 70.3 as an entirely different race.

Why not pare down the US Open golf to just the top 20 players for a shootout? Don't want guys there who will finish 20 shots off the lead! Oh wait, that's right......an amateur has won it at least 8 times. Shucks.

And you think golf and triathlon are comparable? The standards to be a "golf pro" vs a "triathlon pro" are a little bit different. You see golf "underdogs" win all the time. You don't see a burnthesheep having any shot competing with Jan Frodeno. Even with an hour head start.

Point is - was just asking if there should be any additional "qualifications" for a Championship race, or should it just be left to "whoever's left" to fill the start list? It doesn't matter either way, but I think Kona especially should be reserved for those athletes who have EARNED their way there. Hard work doesn't always equal success. Snowflakes look away.

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [Timtek] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 11:23

Post #21 of 30 (6615 views)

Timtek wrote:

Well last year’s 70.3 WC was incredible. Brownlee, Frodo, Gomez and Kanute absolutely threw down. I think the race is underrated because IM had technical difficulties with the video feed due to weather or signal transmission or whatever.

I miss the days when athletes would win at 70.3 WC and Kona in the same year. I always thought that was just a massive show of force, lol.

plus Gomez, plus Currie . . . that was a shocking field. among the best ever.

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 13:20

Post #22 of 30 (6416 views)

Tread carefully with this.

We kinda understand the point you are trying to make, but just as another poster pointed out, it seems like you are trying to stir shit up.

Remember back years ago Ironman used to cut their prize payouts based on race times. If you were in the prize slot list but didn't make the time standard you didn't get the prize payout. Your idea goes along with this previous attempt WTC did which was received terribly. It would most likely be received the same way as the prize payout.

But in a different view Ironman has just too many races spread out over the glove. The amount of travel for many is just too much. For pros it's costly and inhibits consistent training and recovery. For amateurs they have lives outside of the sport. They are mother, fathers, CEO's, etc. This is one of many reasons for the roll downs and why deny the opportunity for someone else to pay for that spot. Remember they are a business first, they care secondly about athletes second, we have gone over this time and time again.

Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 13:26

Post #23 of 30 (6400 views)

I cannot seriously imagine that an amateur finishing "hours" behind a winning AG time would be in the top 100 AG.
---

Perhaps he's talking about different AGs. For example, one can easily see the overall AG time beating the, say, 60+ AG m/f by 2+ hours. In the end, I'm not sure if he has a proposal to ix his problem.

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [erengel23] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 13:40

Post #24 of 30 (6358 views)

erengel23 wrote:

When the race is back in the US, rolldowns are not an issue at all.

My opinions on your original post aside, I really fucking hate shit like the above. Stop being so damn US-centric minded. You really think that down in Australia with NZ in 2020 that slots aren't rolling past the podium?

The correct way to say this would have been "Rolldowns are not an issue in the US for a US-based 70.3 WC" but even then, the recent Chatt 70.3 WC would prove you incorrect because having 50 slots at every race invariably led to deep roll-downs in the April-June races, I had some friends who were 20-25th place in their AGs gets slots to Chatt which I believe is your definition of "an issue"

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Re: IRONMAN 70.3 World "Championship" [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 19 13:41

Post #25 of 30 (6351 views)

Tri-Banter wrote:

In the end, I'm not sure if he has a proposal to ix his problem.

I'll go further and say that I am not sure the OP articulated an actual problem. Yes, there may be some exception cases in some races or some difficult-to-reach WC destinations. But, I seriously doubt those exceptions define the event.

If anyone is bored with the access to results, the first step is to compare the means, medians, and standard deviations by AG & Pro finish times of prior WC events to typical regular races. I would expect that the means and medians are shifted way to the left and the standard deviations are much tighter at the WC.

If the median finish time for an AG is around 6:15 for a typical race, I bet it is 5:15 or faster in the WC; the median could be under 5. And, I bet there are a lot fewer DNF in the WC. If those are true, then the racer class is very good in a WC and there is no problem. In summary, I bet a top 20 finisher that got a slot in a regular race will be in the bottom quartile in the WC. That speaks to a pretty freakin' awesome field.

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