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IM sub60 swim indicators
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Hi - I'm switching up my training this year, and actually started to pay more attention to my swim. I'm interested in what it takes to get to sub 60 mins IM swim (noting that this is dependant upon water conditions, lenght of course etc).

At present I'm at 1'46/100m critical swim speed after a month or so swimming consistantly, in preperation for an early Dec IM (I'm now in the Southern Hemisphere). Prior experience tells me I'll speed up a little before I plateau to my 'usual' trained CSS of about 1'40-1'38.

My best IM swim is 1:07, but I'm usually around 1:10-15. I usually start swimming during the xmas holidays, in prep for Northern Hemisphere races between May and July (I usually take Sept-Dec off as getting to the pool is a big hassle).

Anyways... just looking for some sets that would indicate a sub 60 is on the cards. eg 20x100 at 1'35/100m with 10s rest, or a 1500 TT under 22'30. Something like that.

I'm sure there's info on the forum about this, but I've tried the search function and it didn't come up with anything.

Swim. Overbike. Walk.
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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GrimOopNorth wrote:
Hi - I'm switching up my training this year, and actually started to pay more attention to my swim. I'm interested in what it takes to get to sub 60 mins IM swim (noting that this is dependant upon water conditions, lenght of course etc).

At present I'm at 1'46/100m critical swim speed after a month or so swimming consistantly, in preperation for an early Dec IM (I'm now in the Southern Hemisphere). Prior experience tells me I'll speed up a little before I plateau to my 'usual' trained CSS of about 1'40-1'38.

My best IM swim is 1:07, but I'm usually around 1:10-15. I usually start swimming during the xmas holidays, in prep for Northern Hemisphere races between May and July (I usually take Sept-Dec off as getting to the pool is a big hassle).

Anyways... just looking for some sets that would indicate a sub 60 is on the cards. eg 20x100 at 1'35/100m with 10s rest, or a 1500 TT under 22'30. Something like that.

I'm sure there's info on the forum about this, but I've tried the search function and it didn't come up with anything.

I think you might be surprised how difficult it is to go from say 1:07-1:15 to 1 flat. I always encourage people to swim more than they do but it may not be worth it to put in that much dedication to move the needle that far in one season. Regardless, are you swimming LCM or short-course meters?


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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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If you want to do a sub hour for a non wetsuit ironman swim that is accurate, then you would need to go like 20x100's on the 1;20 holding under 1;15 for SCY. You can add 6 seconds for SCM and about 8 for LCM(1;26/1;28) And that would be about minimum if you are very good in the OW and a great drafter...
Last edited by: monty: May 8, 18 18:05
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
If you want to do a sub hour for a non wetsuit ironman swim that is accurate, then you would need to go like 20x100's on the 1;20 holding under 1;15 for SCY. You can add 6 seconds for SCM and about 8 for LCM(1;26/1;28) And that would be about minimum if you are very good in the OW and a great drafter...

Monty, just out of curiosity: I am doing a swim block ATM and yesterday I swam a 1900 SCM just to gauge where my HIM swim is. I swam a 28.24. Whit that fitness what do you think I'd be able to do for an Ironman swim?
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [vittorio] [ In reply to ]
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Whit that fitness what do you think I'd be able to do for an Ironman swim? //


Well losing some time for the turns, but getting more back for a good draft(as long as you get one!!) you should be right about an hour in a non wetsuit swim( you didn't use one in the pool, or draft someone in your TT, right?) What have you done in past races for 1/2's or fulls that were accurate?? And as to fitness, it is basically all the same. If you get in shape for a good 1900, then it is really the same as a 3800. They are both distance swims that do basically the same sort of training to get good at...
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
If you want to do a sub hour for a non wetsuit ironman swim that is accurate, then you would need to go like 20x100's on the 1;20 holding under 1;15 for SCY. You can add 6 seconds for SCM and about 8 for LCM(1;26/1;28) And that would be about minimum if you are very good in the OW and a great drafter...

Would this also be the benchmark for a flat 30min HIM swim?
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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I would say 28+ to 30 flat, and 26 to 28 wetsuit... I remember when I was in 50-54 AG and I did Oceanside 70.3. I did this set at about 1;11 pulling and did about a 26 low for the accurate swim, swimming through 100's from earlier waves. But lucky for me that about the only guy who could share the lead in the swim with me was there, Dean Harper, so there was a good draft for a good portion of the swim..And that pull time swimming would have been right around a 1;15 for swimming..
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Whit that fitness what do you think I'd be able to do for an Ironman swim? //


Well losing some time for the turns, but getting more back for a good draft(as long as you get one!!) you should be right about an hour in a non wetsuit swim( you didn't use one in the pool, or draft someone in your TT, right?) What have you done in past races for 1/2's or fulls that were accurate?? And as to fitness, it is basically all the same. If you get in shape for a good 1900, then it is really the same as a 3800. They are both distance swims that do basically the same sort of training to get good at...

Thanks a lot.

Yeah, no wetsuit or draft for the TT.

My last HIM was a 30min, but I felt horrible during the swim and also have improved my times since then. Never raced a full, will do next year and hope to swim 60min or slightly under. Seems realistically considering the time frame.
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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GrimOopNorth wrote:
Hi - I'm switching up my training this year, and actually started to pay more attention to my swim. I'm interested in what it takes to get to sub 60 mins IM swim (noting that this is dependant upon water conditions, lenght of course etc).

At present I'm at 1'46/100m critical swim speed after a month or so swimming consistantly, in preperation for an early Dec IM (I'm now in the Southern Hemisphere). Prior experience tells me I'll speed up a little before I plateau to my 'usual' trained CSS of about 1'40-1'38.

My best IM swim is 1:07, but I'm usually around 1:10-15. I usually start swimming during the xmas holidays, in prep for Northern Hemisphere races between May and July (I usually take Sept-Dec off as getting to the pool is a big hassle).

Anyways... just looking for some sets that would indicate a sub 60 is on the cards. eg 20x100 at 1'35/100m with 10s rest, or a 1500 TT under 22'30. Something like that.

I'm sure there's info on the forum about this, but I've tried the search function and it didn't come up with anything.


Is this Busselton Ironman in december?

At 1.46/100m I would say you're a way off. I think if you could get to low 1.30s for 20 x 100 with 10s rest that would get you close for a wetsuit swim. I'd be about 56mins. I don't do heaps of 100s, (mostly 200s/400s+) but I reckon I would be 1.18 - 1.20 leaving on the 1.30 That's in a 25m pool though.
Last edited by: zedzded: May 8, 18 18:37
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I would say 28+ to 30 flat, and 26 to 28 wetsuit... I remember when I was in 50-54 AG and I did Oceanside 70.3. I did this set at about 1;11 pulling and did about a 26 low for the accurate swim, swimming through 100's from earlier waves. But lucky for me that about the only guy who could share the lead in the swim with me was there, Dean Harper, so there was a good draft for a good portion of the swim..And that pull time swimming would have been right around a 1;15 for swimming..

Swimming is so strange. Ok, let me ask you something.

Currently in the pool (scy), I did a 1650 yard TT, I did it in 25:48 (around 1:34 pace). I’ve done plenty 20x100 on 1:40, and I can land them at around 1:32-1:33.

My best 100 yards is somewhere around 1:22
My best 50 is around 39s
And my best 25 is around 17s

What’s the difference between the me swimming 20x100 on 1:40 landing them on 1:33, and the me doing them on 1:30, landing them on 1:22?

When I go 1:22 I’m going max effort (not sprinting, though), the first 50 I feel strong, the next 25 get tough, and the last 25 I just want it to end. Is the me swimming them 20x100 at a 1:22 pace doing the same “power/effort” but is just able to hold it for longer? Does that mean I lack muscular endurance and aerobic capacity?

Or is that hypothetical me doing an effort similar to the current me, the 1:33 pace, but is just able to move faster do to better technique?
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Thomas, Monty. I'm swimming SC meters

When I did the 1:07 and was at 1'38 CSS I was doing 3x 2500-3000m, short course. I'm building back up, currently at three sessions of 2000m each. I recognise I will need to 1) up the weekly distance, 2) up the number of sessions, 3) not take a break between seasons.

The aim is to see how far I can develop my swim as I've never done that. I've had seasons dedicated to breaking through on the bike and the run, but not the swim. I'm starting with IM Western Aus Dec 2018, then IM Taupo Mar 2019, and finally IM Cairns Jun 2019, so it's not a short term goal. The objective is to execute a strong swim, to set my bike leg up nicely.

Given my personality some milestones help to keep my motivation between races and monitor progress towards goal.

Swim. Overbike. Walk.
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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Or is that hypothetical me doing an effort similar to the current me, the 1:33 pace, but is just able to move faster do to better technique? //

It is mostly this^^^ But there is also a thing that happens when you get to around that 1;20 pace, you are able to actually swim harder too. I see it this way, doing mid 1;30s means either you are really old with a great stroke, or young with a mediocre one. Mediocre strokes fall apart quicker, and thus take more effort to hold pace. Better strokes can fall apart, but you still go faster in that beat up zone because you are still holding onto other aspects that affect speed in the water. And I think that happens at many different speeds starting at 2;00 100's, and for sure it happens from a 1;20 low to 1;35 pace too.

So yes, you will be at the same effort level that each of those sets would take to do, only the faster one once your hypothetical self gets there, will feel easier to do, but will feel more painful to do. Does that make sense???
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Is this Busselton Ironman in december? Yes.

At 1.46/100m I would say you're a way off. I think if you could get to low 1.30s for 20 x 100 with 10s rest that would get you close for a wetsuit swim. I'd be about 56mins. I don't do heaps of 100s, (mostly 200s/400s+) but I reckon I would be 1.18 - 1.20 leaving on the 1.30 That's in a 25m pool though.


Oh, trust me, I know 1'46 is way off! Thanks for the set though, very helpful

Swim. Overbike. Walk.
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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GrimOopNorth wrote:
Is this Busselton Ironman in december? Yes.

At 1.46/100m I would say you're a way off. I think if you could get to low 1.30s for 20 x 100 with 10s rest that would get you close for a wetsuit swim. I'd be about 56mins. I don't do heaps of 100s, (mostly 200s/400s+) but I reckon I would be 1.18 - 1.20 leaving on the 1.30 That's in a 25m pool though.


Oh, trust me, I know 1'46 is way off! Thanks for the set though, very helpful

This is a big generalisation, but most people I see that are slower than 1.30/100m tend to have some fundamental issues with their stroke that can often hamstring their ability to progress. I'd suggest:

1)posting video on ST, you'll get some great (free) advice
2)Going to see Swim Smooth in Claremont, Paul does excellent video analysis (I'm in Perth BTW)

Are you with a squad?
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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- 3x 1000 on 1:00 rest. 1. Swim, 2. Pull, 3. Swim
Shoot to hold 1hr-IM pace (1:33/100m or 1:25/100yd) or better for the 3rd 1000.

- 1hr straight swim for distance.
Pretty straight forward. If you can hit 3850m (or farther) you should be good to go.
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I think I get it. And I’m neither very old, nor young. I’m 37 and been swimming for 2.5 years. It took me this long to go from 2:45ish pace, but I’ve been at this pace for about 6 months.
Last edited by: TulkasTri: May 8, 18 20:27
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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This is a big generalisation, but most people I see that are slower than 1.30/100m tend to have some fundamental issues with their stroke that can often hamstring their ability to progress. I'd suggest:

1)posting video on ST, you'll get some great (free) advice
2)Going to see Swim Smooth in Claremont, Paul does excellent video analysis (I'm in Perth BTW)


Aye, I'm a big fan of Paul and Adam since wayyyy back. Unfortunately I'm not in the UK, or Perth for that matter so attending a coaching sesh isn't on the cards (I'm in kiwiland). I used to get OW and video coaching Dan Bullock in London (swimfortri), but again, lost contact when I moved. I could use my samsung to get some video, just got to figure out how to hold it in the water/ hang it off the side.

And yes, I figure I've got some issues: slight overglide on left side, collapsing pull when breathing right, dropping legs in long sets, slower turnover rate than I'd like, etc. And that's just what I've identified.

Swim. Overbike. Walk.
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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I'll give a (slightly) controversial answer.

For slower swimmers ( >55mins for IM) I think that paddles and PB speed give a better indication of race pace if it's an OW wetsuit swim.
You'll be in some sort of pack, the water will be quite rough and you really won't be able to swim your best stroke. It'll be about keeping the basics right without form collapsing in the last 3rd of the swim, gaining benefit from wetsuit leg lift and core support, and drafting.

On this basis, if you can lap 1.30 off 10seconds rest (ad infinitum within reason, 20 should be enough for an indication) with pad and PB then that should be enough.
That is my benchmark - along with sub 6.00 400m (full gas) and I swim sub 60min.
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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There is a swim smooth provider in Hamilton and quite a few good stroke correctors in Auckland if your keen..

Although with those races planned swimming might not be required...

IMWA- hasn't been a swim at IM or 70.3 for ages..
IMNZ- 70.3 SWIM canceled due to algae..
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [mhepp] [ In reply to ]
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mhepp wrote:
- 3x 1000 on 1:00 rest. 1. Swim, 2. Pull, 3. Swim
Shoot to hold 1hr-IM pace (1:33/100m or 1:25/100yd) or better for the 3rd 1000.

- 1hr straight swim for distance.
Pretty straight forward. If you can hit 3850m (or farther) you should be good to go.

nice one a they say the best perormance predictor is performance itself and it takes out the guesswork ( as monty said dont forget drafting advantages so a bit slower in test is ok also deoends how fresh you were for test )
suggesting x time for 100 without asking for weekly miles years of swimming , intensity etc is not great .
( of course once you have established your personal benchmarks that are race proven that a total different matter doing similar training )


same when people try to select their watts for an IM doing a 20 min ftp test ...or the 220 minus age hr rule ....
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I tend to hate pool time trials personally because I'm not good at turns. I probably should take the time to get better but I would rather focus on my stroke. I've only done Olympic/sprints and will be increasing this year to HIM and next to IM. I swam a 22:30 wetsuit 1.5k and 26min non wetsuit race (I had a bit of traffic to swim over because of the wave start) on about 8-10K SCM/week. How much more would I have to swim to keep that pace for an IM? I might get some better times this year because I've dropped 5 sec off my 100 times with basically the same turn, but I wouldn't count it until I race.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
If you want to do a sub hour for a non wetsuit ironman swim that is accurate, then you would need to go like 20x100's on the 1;20 holding under 1;15 for SCY. You can add 6 seconds for SCM and about 8 for LCM(1;26/1;28) And that would be about minimum if you are very good in the OW and a great drafter...

This seems pretty spot-on to me, with the one caveat that it would vary greatly depending on how good someone is at turns.

I know some people that are fairly quick and open water but are absolutely rubbish at turns and it adds about 5-7 Seconds to their short course 100s vs someone with a decent turn who is otherwise swimming the same speed.

I've always been to the personal opinion that triathletes really shouldn't worry much about their flip turns since they won't need them it erases, but if you're trying to suss out where your race times will be, it's important to factor that in.
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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TulkasTri wrote:
monty wrote:
If you want to do a sub hour for a non wetsuit ironman swim that is accurate, then you would need to go like 20x100's on the 1;20 holding under 1;15 for SCY. You can add 6 seconds for SCM and about 8 for LCM(1;26/1;28) And that would be about minimum if you are very good in the OW and a great drafter...

Would this also be the benchmark for a flat 30min HIM swim?

I hold pretty much dead on those numbers that Monty posted, and the last half I did I cruised to a 26 in a wetsuit half without burning too many candles
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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davejustdave wrote:
monty wrote:
If you want to do a sub hour for a non wetsuit ironman swim that is accurate, then you would need to go like 20x100's on the 1;20 holding under 1;15 for SCY. You can add 6 seconds for SCM and about 8 for LCM(1;26/1;28) And that would be about minimum if you are very good in the OW and a great drafter...


This seems pretty spot-on to me, with the one caveat that it would vary greatly depending on how good someone is at turns.

I know some people that are fairly quick and open water but are absolutely rubbish at turns and it adds about 5-7 Seconds to their short course 100s vs someone with a decent turn who is otherwise swimming the same speed.

I've always been to the personal opinion that triathletes really shouldn't worry much about their flip turns since they won't need them it erases, but if you're trying to suss out where your race times will be, it's important to factor that in.

I want to be sure I'm getting this right. Monty is saying that to go under an hour, a person should be able to hold under 1:15 SCY (or 1:21 SCM) with only... like 5 seconds rest?

I could never do that workout - not in a million years. But I've done an hour (literally 1:00:08) and broken 30 for a half IM.
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Re: IM sub60 swim indicators [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know... I went :58 at a few IMs including one long one on 100s on the 1:30... you really think 100s on the 1:20 is required to go sub-hour?

monty wrote:
If you want to do a sub hour for a non wetsuit ironman swim that is accurate, then you would need to go like 20x100's on the 1;20 holding under 1;15 for SCY. You can add 6 seconds for SCM and about 8 for LCM(1;26/1;28) And that would be about minimum if you are very good in the OW and a great drafter...

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