Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ashroadadam] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 15 7:40

Post #626 of 774 (17672 views)

ashroadadam wrote:

There are a lot of people upset about this in the local community, because sports is the foundation of our culture. Cheating calls everything we do into question. I read a post from a local guy (just being fair, not my thoughts) that pointed out that lots of people are screwed over by this kind of cheating

All the businesses that supported her are now linked to a cheat not a champ
All the people that gave her money or air miles feel like they were defrauded
Other athletes now have to pay more for systems to catch cheaters (new tech and timing matts comes out of entry fees)
Distrust is bred in the racing community even at the amateur level
Other amateur athletes that didn't get support are pissed off that a cheater was funded
The race directors have to waste time managing the crap-show
Public feels less willing to support athletes when cheaters are revealed
People that hired her or worked with her now doubt the rest of her credentials
People that competed against her for jobs and contracts feel pissed that she advanced on misrepresentation of her character
The public is concerned that this person is heavily involved in counseling young people and managing charities; this is concerning given the pattern of deception

The list goes on. Someone pointed out that this type of cheating is even worse than pros, because we don't expect it. It's like stealing from friends and family.This mess is not confined to the tri community. It's the talk of the town, and it is spreading out to every water-cooler, every coffee shop, every post-race party, and nothing in these conversations is positive, or contributing to the enrichment of the sports community.

I tend to agree with this. The situation has a large cause and effect on the age grouper Tri community as a whole. Legitimate age group athletes spend huge amounts of money and time, pursuing their goals. Race fees have been creeping up (more like sky rocketing). This situation leads to higher fees and sponsor apathy (which subsequently leads to higher fees). The fact that there was solicitation for money/air miles will always make the non Tri community feeling like their dollars and time (IM volunteers) can be ( scandal free) spent elsewhere. That is why this MATTERS. Not to mention the numerous social media posts by JM on women's empowerment etc.... Of course the Tri community shouldn't be defined by this act but just like other cheating scandals (Mike Rossi) it's the first thing the non Tri community ask you about at dinner parties.

Interesting I found this online recently:

http://definefeminine.arcteryx.com/nominee/julie-miller

Nepotism potentially?

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [gmt] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 15 7:45

Post #627 of 774 (17633 views)

No, many have no license and buy a 1-day license instead. Paperwork for this gets submitted to USAT after the event is conducted.

USAC handles this much better, and as bike racers tend to race far more than triathletes, virtually all bike racers have an annual license.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [kny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 15 11:37

Post #628 of 774 (17063 views)

kny wrote:

No, many have no license and buy a 1-day license instead. Paperwork for this gets submitted to USAT after the event is conducted.

USAC handles this much better, and as bike racers tend to race far more than triathletes, virtually all bike racers have an annual license.

I think what would happen is a banned athlete would end up registering and racing and then someone would find out the athlete raced and the results would be retroactively stripped.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [kny] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 15 12:34

Post #629 of 774 (16833 views)

kny wrote:

In reality, how is someone actually banned? For years I've directed a USAT-sanctioned and never has USAT provided me a blacklist of banned athletes. There's nothing in our registration system from stopping Cowman or Julie Miller or newbz or whoever from signing up. There's nothing in our volunteer training that would have them screen out these people when they show up. How, exactly, do these lifetime bans actually work in practice?

for the record, if cowman showed up at a race i was organizing, he'd race for free and get to put his feet on my dinner table afterwards. the man's a bloody legend.

anyway, to your point: yes, how does this actually work? especially w/r/t to things like kona vs worlds? already this appears to be a big jurisdictional problem, since different companies/federations take responsibility for different events, even when one is a 'qualifier' for another. . .

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Francois] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 15 17:06

Post #630 of 774 (16307 views)

Francois wrote:

zoom wrote:

She's a coach? This is the first that I've heard about this. What does she coach?

ashroadadam wrote:

In regard to the effect this will have on Ms. Miller's life...well Squamish is a small town (about 17,000 people). The people that supported her prior to the cheating allegations are among the most popular and influential in the community. There is no rock she can crawl under to escape the knowledge of her actions. It was front page news in the local paper, on the radio, and discussed in the business community where support for her races was generated. Her pool of friends just dried up in a hurry. Even the can't-believe-it crowd has gone quiet in the wake of the evidence. She'll have a hard time finding takers for her coaching services, and her employment as a person that counsels youth could come into question given the way the allegations strike at the core of her virtues. So, yeah it could have quite an effect on her life (not just racing but also the other stuff that goes along with it). One might ask if it is fair for the punishment to extend beyond her racing life, but the stigma may also serve as a warning to others that contemplate similar strategies.

Orienteering.

LOL!!! Well played!

float , hammer , and jog

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 15 17:58

Post #631 of 774 (16135 views)

zedzded wrote:

Dan Funk wrote:

JayPeeWhy wrote:

if Ms. Miller quits racing, I doubt it will have too big effect on her life.

I would have thought close friends, family, her husband etc would be expecting some pretty good answers. I don't think I'd simply brush it off, if I found out my wife had been systematically cheating in races for years, whilst defrauding dozens of individuals and companies.[/quote

You assume that people really care. I tend to think they don't. If she defrauded companies, she could get sued. Based on facts presented, I doubt she will.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 15 16:42

Post #632 of 774 (15047 views)

Any updates on this case? Any more suspensions from Triathlon Federation in Canada?

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 15 20:47

Post #633 of 774 (14704 views)

Dan Funk wrote:

This is obviously very personal to you and your wife. I totally understand why. It's also pretty clear it has consumed you for quite some time. Totally legit. My point was that it seemed to blow up on ST later in August (I had followed other thread somewhat...it didn't start in July did it?)...when these sort of threads typically appear.

I'm not trying to shit on this. It looks like egregious behavior. But do you really think a paradigm shift? I think WTC (and all of tri) has been smartening up on course cutters... maybe this helps a little bit. I also believe harmful course cutting is quite small % of cheats in tris. But that's just my opinion.

The world, the internets, and yes, even ST... move pretty rapidly unto the next shiny object. I don't see how any more of her races being found out make her any more of a villain.

If someone lost to her in a race because of cheating... it's 100% legit to be upset. Looks like Kona issues got sorted out, so that's awesome. Feel bad for those she beat at WCs. But do you think anyone outside of family and friends gives a shit if someone is an "AG World Champion"? C'mon. No disrespect to those who achieve that. There are some seriously fast amateurs out there. But when the race is over... nobody but maybe tens of people really care.

I would imagine anyone who gave her money is a friend. Some of them may be pissed. But... in my book... giving money to friends is always rife with potential problems.

Imagine there will be those who try to keep the drumbeat going. But like I said in my first post - if Ms. Miller quits racing, I doubt it will have too big effect on her life.

Actually, it's not that personal, well, not to me and it had very little effect on Claire .... moving from 3rd to 2nd isn't life changing, 1st would have been awesome but .... 2nd is, just 2nd. She had already got her Kona spot as it went to top 3.

It mainly started because it was annoying. We knew she had cut the course but she argued her way back in. Kind of got my back up that she would do that instead of just slinking off somewhere and keeping her head down. I also knew that Marla deserved the Kona spot and knowing what people do to achieve that I thought it needed standing up for.

I have spent quite some time on it but mainly summarizing stuff other people had sent me. I guess I became the Mail Box for Miller evidence for IMC, Vancouver and China. I just wrote it up neatly. Then when more stuff came in it just felt important that the right thing be done at those other races.

https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
https://www.thisbigroadtrip.com

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 15 10:32

Post #634 of 774 (14099 views)

JayPeeWhy wrote:

Dan Funk wrote:

This is obviously very personal to you and your wife. I totally understand why. It's also pretty clear it has consumed you for quite some time. Totally legit. My point was that it seemed to blow up on ST later in August (I had followed other thread somewhat...it didn't start in July did it?)...when these sort of threads typically appear.

I'm not trying to shit on this. It looks like egregious behavior. But do you really think a paradigm shift? I think WTC (and all of tri) has been smartening up on course cutters... maybe this helps a little bit. I also believe harmful course cutting is quite small % of cheats in tris. But that's just my opinion.

The world, the internets, and yes, even ST... move pretty rapidly unto the next shiny object. I don't see how any more of her races being found out make her any more of a villain.

If someone lost to her in a race because of cheating... it's 100% legit to be upset. Looks like Kona issues got sorted out, so that's awesome. Feel bad for those she beat at WCs. But do you think anyone outside of family and friends gives a shit if someone is an "AG World Champion"? C'mon. No disrespect to those who achieve that. There are some seriously fast amateurs out there. But when the race is over... nobody but maybe tens of people really care.

I would imagine anyone who gave her money is a friend. Some of them may be pissed. But... in my book... giving money to friends is always rife with potential problems.

Imagine there will be those who try to keep the drumbeat going. But like I said in my first post - if Ms. Miller quits racing, I doubt it will have too big effect on her life.

Actually, it's not that personal, well, not to me and it had very little effect on Claire .... moving from 3rd to 2nd isn't life changing, 1st would have been awesome but .... 2nd is, just 2nd. She had already got her Kona spot as it went to top 3.

It mainly started because it was annoying. We knew she had cut the course but she argued her way back in. Kind of got my back up that she would do that instead of just slinking off somewhere and keeping her head down. I also knew that Marla deserved the Kona spot and knowing what people do to achieve that I thought it needed standing up for.

I have spent quite some time on it but mainly summarizing stuff other people had sent me. I guess I became the Mail Box for Miller evidence for IMC, Vancouver and China. I just wrote it up neatly. Then when more stuff came in it just felt important that the right thing be done at those other races.

From a local Squamish point of view this is a disturbing long lasting issue because this lady promoted her values and athleticism in her personal and professional lives. She is a self-described successful business woman who solicited the community and companies for money and product to carry on competing under "her values". There are plenty of young athletes and underprivileged kids that could have used more help than this entitled lady. Yes entitled is my opinion but one that the community now shares due to her actions.

She has eroded the confidence in fair play for us in our community and in the larger triathlon community.

When you announce to the world what you are doing and the world finds out that it isn't true, then don't be afraid of what the world has to say.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 15 10:39

Post #635 of 774 (14055 views)

Here is a link to a really good note about this whole situation that was shared on the Ironman Canada FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/...ng/10153525373537394

Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 7:50

Post #636 of 774 (12737 views)

Glad that mad theory got deleted.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 9:45

Post #637 of 774 (12489 views)

Triathlon Magazine Canada has weighed in on this with an interesting editorial, although not specific to the person in question.

More directly, Triathlon Canada has confirmed an investigation into the case. I hope they look into the China ITU World Long Distance champs in 2014 as well.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 10:35

Post #638 of 774 (12357 views)

OkotoksLawyer wrote:

...More directly, Triathlon Canada has confirmed an investigation into the case. I hope they look into the China ITU World Long Distance champs in 2014 as well.

Kay Serrar in post #499 reported that the ITU doesn't have individual lap data on the run in China and had other timing issues, so it appears as though ITU would have a harder time proving JM cut the course.

IMO if she did cut that course, that is the most egregious of all of the actions since if true, it cost another a World Championships (even if it is just an AG WC).

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 11:01

Post #639 of 774 (12274 views)

IMO, based on the fact that Ms Miller has been DQd from multiple races for not completing the prescribed course, she should have all results stripped between 2013 and 2015 including the ITU World Championships. I do not recall the exact post in this thread, but it was posted that a protest was filed by the British contingent at ITU worlds. Now that it has been shown that she has cut courses, that protest has much more validity. Hopefully the conclusion of Triathlon Canada's investigation will result in this.

Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [heliskyr] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 11:02

Post #640 of 774 (12282 views)

heliskyr wrote:

OkotoksLawyer wrote:

...More directly, Triathlon Canada has confirmed an investigation into the case. I hope they look into the China ITU World Long Distance champs in 2014 as well.

Kay Serrar in post #499 reported that the ITU doesn't have individual lap data on the run in China and had other timing issues, so it appears as though ITU would have a harder time proving JM cut the course.

IMO if she did cut that course, that is the most egregious of all of the actions since if true, it cost another a World Championships (even if it is just an AG WC).

How does sanctioning work for other forms of cheating? Does it invalidate any results that occur between the two events?

If the DQ's for the three events (IMC 2013, Vancouver half 2014, IMC 2015) are determined to be intentional, does that justify removing any results in between them?

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [peeg] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 11:21

Post #641 of 774 (12225 views)

Those are good questions. I am just a run-of-the-mill AG'er so really don't know the details of how governing bodies would handle sanctions for cases of repeated course cutting. As an amateur athlete however, my sense of fair play states if someone has been proven to habitually cheat in some way, then they ought to be sanctioned and results stripped. The 3 strikes rule works well in baseball!

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [heliskyr] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 11:30

Post #642 of 774 (12184 views)

heliskyr wrote:

Those are good questions. I am just a run-of-the-mill AG'er so really don't know the details of how governing bodies would handle sanctions for cases of repeated course cutting. As an amateur athlete however, my sense of fair play states if someone has been proven to habitually cheat in some way, then they ought to be sanctioned and results stripped. The 3 strikes rule works well in baseball!

I seriously doubt they will invalidate her China result.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JorgeRamos] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 12:23

Post #643 of 774 (12032 views)

I share your skepticism on this point. However, it seems to me that governing bodies, Tri BC, Triathlon Canada who have each confirmed an investigation, would at least have a responsibility to request GPS, heart rate or prior training data and evaluate the evidence and come to a conclusion. Us internet snoops have no imprimatur to do so. If she decides not to comply with requests from a governing body to supply them with information in their investigation, the governing body could then decide what conclusion to reach in the face of a refusal to cooperate.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JorgeRamos] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 12:23

Post #644 of 774 (12029 views)

The fact that the race used to qualify for China-LD 2014 is a DISQ, then shouldn't that be enough to throw out that result?

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ffips] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 13:22

Post #645 of 774 (11888 views)

Maybe things have changed recently, but in the past, TriCan has had more spots than they have had qualified & interested racers for LD Worlds at overseas venues. What they'll do is have a few qualifying races and get a handful of people interested. Then, after 6-8 months of complete silence, the all-in price is revealed and many of those qualified racers decide they can't afford the trip. (For me in 2008 this also involved forfeiting my $125 TriCan membership fee,) TriCan would then open on the team to all-comers. (Or at least all-comers with enough $)

Maybe times have changed but certainly when I was looking at competing at LC worlds, it would have been tough to argue a DQ for race based on a DQ in the qualifying race since she probably would have got a spot on the team anyway.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [banana] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 15 13:53

Post #646 of 774 (16827 views)

yep. also, despite the terminology, you don't technically "qualify" for worlds in tri. it's more accurately thought of as an 'invitational' race. ITU gives TriCan x number of spots, and lets TriCan allocate those spots however they want. we usually have some sort of 'qualifying' race format, but for all ITU cares, TriCan could just pick names out of a hat (or, as you say, roll down).

long story short, cheating in the qualifier wouldn't (necessarily) automatically disqualify you from the Champs, like it would with, say, running the boston marathon or something.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]

Sep 18, 15 21:43

Post #647 of 774 (15508 views)

You're right Mike. I'd still love to see justice served if there was proven cheating at Worlds. Perhaps locating those who raced near her and getting their garmin files? That's a big job I realize.

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Vans88] [ In reply to ]

Sep 19, 15 7:58

Post #648 of 774 (15192 views)

It was. Watch this space.

https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
https://www.thisbigroadtrip.com

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]

Sep 19, 15 10:10

Post #649 of 774 (15013 views)

^ The plot thickens.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]

Sep 19, 15 10:51

Post #650 of 774 (14946 views)

A gal from Vietnam responded "elsewhere" about the China event in which cheating was "seen" by the Vietnam participant.

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