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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [matthansontri] [ In reply to ]
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matthansontri wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
  • average run mileage week last 6 months - 40 to 50 miles
  • biggest run mileage week - 72 miles 3 weeks prior to IMTX

Matt,

Have to wish you congratulations of course. As I told you not too long ago, I've been following your results for a while and was eager to see how you were going to do at IMTX. I was very impressed and excited when I saw you took the lead, knowing it was very unlikely you'd lost that lead on the run.

About that run mileage.... On those normal 40-50 mpw, if you don't mind saying, how do you break those miles up? Surely your long run has to be over 15 miles, making it more than 30% of your total mileage for that week, correct?

When thinking about the mileage, I thought 40-50 miles seemed very low for training for marathons, but clearly it isn't since you're crushing the run in races. That's why I'm intrigued as to how that's all broken up during the week.

Best of luck in Kona this October. You'll be the one I'll be hoping gets the win for sure.
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
If you can hold 1:01 for a significant number on the 1:30 or any of the combos you mentioned - I'm flabbergasted you couldn't make the lead group last weekend. There were 1:45 to 1:48 200 freestyle swimmers on my team that couldn't hold 1:01 on that set.

Scott the thing is pool metrics almost mean nothing compared to open-water triathlon swimming IMO. For reference, I have seen TJ just messing around in the pool go 1:51 for a 200 free. Then my main swimming partner Maik Twelsiak would be lucky to hold 1:11s on say 10x100 on 1:30. Yet TJ and Maik come out consistently together. Sebi can absolutely light Maik up in the pool, but then Maik lights up Sebi in open-water. There is a pro who was swimming like 53s for 10x100 on 1:30 yet regularly now comes out of the water behind me. I have never gone sub-1 on a single hundred. Then there are all the pros who are adult onset swimmers who are always talking about off-season gains and swimming faster in the pool yet swim no faster when it comes to open-water. The biggest conclusion I have come to for adult swimmers is:

- Swim often
- Practice true race swimming as often as you can - if you just race 1-2 Ironmans a year there is no hope for you as there is no way to truly simulate the starts in training
- Measure progress in races frequently against peers
- Don't talk about gains on Twitter/Facebook until you actual put them into practice in a race


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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
sentania wrote:

If you can hold 1:01 for a significant number on the 1:30 or any of the combos you mentioned - I'm flabbergasted you couldn't make the lead group last weekend. There were 1:45 to 1:48 200 freestyle swimmers on my team that couldn't hold 1:01 on that set.


Scott the thing is pool metrics almost mean nothing compared to open-water triathlon swimming IMO. For reference, I have seen TJ just messing around in the pool go 1:51 for a 200 free. Then my main swimming partner Maik Twelsiak would be lucky to hold 1:11s on say 10x100 on 1:30. Yet TJ and Maik come out consistently together. Sebi can absolutely light Maik up in the pool, but then Maik lights up Sebi in open-water. There is a pro who was swimming like 53s for 10x100 on 1:30 yet regularly now comes out of the water behind me. I have never gone sub-1 on a single hundred. Then there are all the pros who are adult onset swimmers who are always talking about off-season gains and swimming faster in the pool yet swim no faster when it comes to open-water. The biggest conclusion I have come to for adult swimmers is:
- Swim often
- Practice true race swimming as often as you can - if you just race 1-2 Ironmans a year there is no hope for you as there is no way to truly simulate the starts in training
- Measure progress in races frequently against peers
- Don't talk about gains on Twitter/Facebook until you actual put them into practice in a race

TG - I hear what you are saying but I think you are exaggerating a bit. I don't believe that there is any way that someone who can hold 53s on 1:30 for 10 x 100 is going to come out of the water behind someone who can't break 1:00 for a single 100. Sorry but that is just not believable to me after swimming most of my life. Certainly the whole "having enough sprint speed to make the front pack" has great validity but the front pack guys are still swimming pretty fast in the pool on their endurance set also, as well as in OW:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
sentania wrote:

If you can hold 1:01 for a significant number on the 1:30 or any of the combos you mentioned - I'm flabbergasted you couldn't make the lead group last weekend. There were 1:45 to 1:48 200 freestyle swimmers on my team that couldn't hold 1:01 on that set.


Scott the thing is pool metrics almost mean nothing compared to open-water triathlon swimming IMO. For reference, I have seen TJ just messing around in the pool go 1:51 for a 200 free. Then my main swimming partner Maik Twelsiak would be lucky to hold 1:11s on say 10x100 on 1:30. Yet TJ and Maik come out consistently together. Sebi can absolutely light Maik up in the pool, but then Maik lights up Sebi in open-water. There is a pro who was swimming like 53s for 10x100 on 1:30 yet regularly now comes out of the water behind me. I have never gone sub-1 on a single hundred. Then there are all the pros who are adult onset swimmers who are always talking about off-season gains and swimming faster in the pool yet swim no faster when it comes to open-water. The biggest conclusion I have come to for adult swimmers is:
- Swim often
- Practice true race swimming as often as you can - if you just race 1-2 Ironmans a year there is no hope for you as there is no way to truly simulate the starts in training
- Measure progress in races frequently against peers
- Don't talk about gains on Twitter/Facebook until you actual put them into practice in a race


TG - I hear what you are saying but I think you are exaggerating a bit. I don't believe that there is any way that someone who can hold 53s on 1:30 for 10 x 100 is going to come out of the water behind someone who can't break 1:00 for a single 100. Sorry but that is just not believable to me after swimming most of my life. Certainly the whole "having enough sprint speed to make the front pack" has great validity but the front pack guys are still swimming pretty fast in the pool on their endurance set also, as well as in OW:)


No exaggeration whatsoever, that is a true story. There is some correlation in pool-open swimming, but it is very messy.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: May 22, 15 19:51
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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OK but this may merit a separate thread to get the composite fish opinion:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [C_Hassard] [ In reply to ]
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C_Hassard wrote:
matthansontri wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

  • average run mileage week last 6 months - 40 to 50 miles
  • biggest run mileage week - 72 miles 3 weeks prior to IMTX

Matt,

Have to wish you congratulations of course. As I told you not too long ago, I've been following your results for a while and was eager to see how you were going to do at IMTX. I was very impressed and excited when I saw you took the lead, knowing it was very unlikely you'd lost that lead on the run.

About that run mileage.... On those normal 40-50 mpw, if you don't mind saying, how do you break those miles up? Surely your long run has to be over 15 miles, making it more than 30% of your total mileage for that week, correct?

When thinking about the mileage, I thought 40-50 miles seemed very low for training for marathons, but clearly it isn't since you're crushing the run in races. That's why I'm intrigued as to how that's all broken up during the week.

Best of luck in Kona this October. You'll be the one I'll be hoping gets the win for sure.

40-50 miles a week would seem low if I was training for a marathon, but I'm really not. When training for a stand alone marathon, most of your aerobic work is done running. While in the final build for IMTX, very little of my aerobic work is done running. Typically, my Monday run would be a 10-12 mile treadmill workout that included hill work. Wednesday run is a track day, so high intensity and low distance (I PRd in a 5k in one of these track workouts during the build). Sometimes I did another 10-12 mile strength workout on Thursday, but sometimes we just biked on Thursday. Then Sunday I did my long run which ranged from 20-28 miles and always at intended race pace or faster. I did very few "garbage" miles in the last build. With the time constraints that I had from March to race day, every workout had to be quality.

---
http://www.matthansontri.com
http://www.matthansonracing.com
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [matthansontri] [ In reply to ]
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Matt,
Do you carry a spare kit on the bike?
Thanks
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [Simple Stevie] [ In reply to ]
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I did not carry a spare kit for this race. I ran tubular tires and had a sealant in them. In the Torhans bento box, I had 3 co2 cartridges. If I flatted, I was just going to keep inflating the tire until I could flag down help. If I would have had to change a full tubular, very likely my day would have been over in that field of athletes.

---
http://www.matthansontri.com
http://www.matthansonracing.com
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [matthansontri] [ In reply to ]
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Matt, you would do a pretty long run on Sunday and then turn around on Monday and do treadmill with hills? You didn't find that to be too close together? Or am I misunderstanding something?

----------------------------------------------------------
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Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
Matt, you would do a pretty long run on Sunday and then turn around on Monday and do treadmill with hills? You didn't find that to be too close together? Or am I misunderstanding something?

No, you aren't missing anything and typically I was able to handle that just fine. I have a recovery day on friday most weeks so I enter the weekend fresh.

---
http://www.matthansontri.com
http://www.matthansonracing.com
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [matthansontri] [ In reply to ]
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Matt, can you give some example track workouts you do on Wednesdays during a build? Running a full 5k on the track is not a very typical track workout. Most people wouldn't go longer than 1600m intervals on the track.

..
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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The track session Matt has been doing on a wednesday is not a 5k individual effort. Rather a mixture of 400's & 200's totalling 5k (not all sessions but some of them).

Regards

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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Coach David already mentioned the 2s and 4s track workout that totaled 5k. I also did a quite a few weeks of repeat 800s. It all depends on where I am in the build and what coach David is trying to accomplish.

---
http://www.matthansontri.com
http://www.matthansonracing.com
Last edited by: matthansontri: May 24, 15 8:16
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [matthansontri] [ In reply to ]
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So the mentioned 14:50 5k is intervals, but this time does not including rest? Or these are rolling 400/200s where you are changing pace every other and you still covered 5k in 14:50?

..
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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Yup you got it, rolling X times [200/400 (with a last 200) ]..... some days the total run was 5k other days less.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, that is impressive. How much slower is the slower interval over the faster one? If you had to ballpark Matt's open 5k where would put it, 14:25?

..
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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For Matt the difference is about 55secs per mile in pace.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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The gap between the 400s and 200s depends on the day, the number of repeats, etc. It is variable. I have no idea what I'd run a 5k in and don't really intend on finding out any time soon. I am on the same page with Coach David that it doesn't make any sense to interrupt a build to find out how I could perform in a 5k, 10k, 40k TT, or even a stand alone marathon.

---
http://www.matthansontri.com
http://www.matthansonracing.com
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [matthansontri] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, that is why I was surprised by your original post that maybe indicated a single 5k effort. With the change in pace you are talking about these are really classic intervals with rolling recovery though. Do all of your track sessions include rolling recovery?

This is Slowtwitch and we love to speculate about open times ... I'm going to speculate you have 2:20 open marathon speed. Which is pretty crazy considering how little run training you are doing now and you don't have a collegiate running background.

..
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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Speculate away :).

We do a variety different types of sets on the track. Some have "rolling" recoveries, some don't.

---
http://www.matthansontri.com
http://www.matthansonracing.com
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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dogmile wrote:
Sure, that is why I was surprised by your original post that maybe indicated a single 5k effort. With the change in pace you are talking about these are really classic intervals with rolling recovery though. Do all of your track sessions include rolling recovery?

This is Slowtwitch and we love to speculate about open times ... I'm going to speculate you have 2:20 open marathon speed. Which is pretty crazy considering how little run training you are doing now and you don't have a collegiate running background.

..

I think the gap between what age groupers do in open racing vs IM racing is wide (like 20-40 min). But when you get to pro triathlon speeds, you can't derate that easily by 20 min to get to open marathon speed, largely because of the physics of running that fast generally requires a body type that pro triathletes don't have. I think the fastest we have seen are Ryan Bolton and Christian Bustos who actually did low 2:20's. Mark Allen tried to break 2:20 and DNF'd at the Berlin marathon in 1994. On paper, Mark should have been sub 2:20, but his quads turned to wood somewhere around 20 miles before he could find out what he would really do. To go sub 2:20, you have to run a pile of miles at open marathon speed so that would be around 5:20 miles for a lot of the running volume. I don't think we're ever going to find out how fast pro triathletes can run open marathons, because it is pointless for them to try to run that fast. It would just take too many running miles and too high risk of injury and as Matt said, take away from their triathlon builds. I"m not even certain that Alistair Brownlee would break 2:20. If I plug in 29 minute 10K into MacMillan I get 2:16, but I am not sure that Alistair has the durability to withstand the training to go 2:20.
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Brownlee ran a legitimate 28:32 on the track at Stanford in 2013. The guy that finished behind him went 2:16 in a marathon the year before. It is pretty rare to get a legitimate track time for triathletes. I'll take your bet that he couldn't break 2:20 in a marathon any day. Of course, we are never going to see it, that is why we speculate on countless threads...

Matt has gone 2:41 in an Ironman. The track session he is talking about certainly puts him in the low 2:20 range for speed. Maybe he would pull a Mark Alan, maybe not. Maybe Mark Allen just needed 6 tries to get it right. (he DNF'd his first Kona too)

..
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
matthansontri wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
matthansontri wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
Matt - IIRC, you were part of the pro swim camp Tim put on this past Jan at The Woodlands, correct??? How did that camp work out for you and how much did you improve in the 30 days or so??? Bet you liked having John Kenney and Balazs there to push you in the workouts!!! From what I've read/heard, John K. is just a motor in the water:)

And of course, congrats on your great race!!!


Had to urban dictionary IIRC....but yes, I was part of the camp with Tim and Magnolia Masters. He is my swim coach, but we typically work together remotely. The January camp was a great opportunity for me. We focused almost exclusively on swimming. It was great to have John and Balazs as well as Cody and Justin to push me every day. I took around 3-4 second off my 100 hold pace for threshold sets. Essentially, I took about the same amount of time off in the course of a month as I did the previous 11 months working with Tim. As soon as my cycling and running volume and intensity returned in Feb, I was able to hold on to 2-3 seconds of the drop and as soon as I entered my taper for IMTX, I was swimming just as well as I was in January again.


Awesome result for a one month camp!!! Can you "share" your 100 scy threshold pace, or is that "privileged info"??? Also, how do you/Tim define "threshold pace", i.e. some people will say the pace you can hold for 20 x 100 scy with 10-15 sec rest, vs others will say 10 x 100 scy w/ only 5 sec rest.






Coming into IMTX, I was holding 1:01/2s scy pushing off at 1:25. In my full build, I was holding 1:03/4 on the same push off interval. "Threshold" was probably not the right term to use since, as you suggest, everyone does this differently. Tim has a very specific philosophy when it comes to swim training that centers around developing neuromuscular efficiency and connecting everything along the kinetic chain. He mentioned that he is thinking of doing a detailed write up on ST at some point shortly, so I'll let him address this as he sees fit.


Holding 1:01s, and 1:04s even when tired, on 1:25 is quite impressive IMO but not too surprising given your very large engine plus your upper body strength from your wrestling years. A guy like you can prob continue to improve and get down to a 50-ish IM swim. Thanks for sharing your info:)


With times like this in the pool, i would expect a athlete to be swimming 49-50min (front group) during a ironman without any issue. But once again, time in the pool dont always translate to open water skill/performance.

best of luck Matt for the reminder of the season. amazing performance last weekend!

Jonathan Caron

Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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This was my take too. No offense to Matt, his performance was nothing short of stellar, but with swim times like this in the pool, I would expect a very low 50, or high 49, even without wetsuit.
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Re: IMTX Race Report - Ask Away [matthansontri] [ In reply to ]
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Matt,
I have recently reviewed video from the 2014 Kona beer mile. By lap 3, you looked like you were really struggling to hang on to the leading group. How would you compare that effort with your relatively easy day in the Woodlands? /pink
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