Unless you were at the race, it's hard to tell. In 2002 in Lubbock, Lovato crashed hard on the bike. I passed him straight out of T2 and told him to try to run and he obviously couldn't...he just walked on the course, stopped here and there, encouraged absolutely everyone and stayed on the course to wait for the back of the packers...this was greatly appreciated by a lot of people. From the times of DF and AF, they probably struggled on the run and then decided to do something similar...just a guess.

Rule #6 - Never make any assumptions on how an athlete feels about his or her race after finishing.

I imagine both Andrea and Desiree have their own reasons and motivations. Kudos to their effort.

So, they should somehow change the rules of the race after the results are posted and base Kona slots on who "tried" the hardest?

No. They should have some absolute cut-off for pro women (and men, too, if they are in the race). If the pros can't hit some pre-determined time, then the slot should get rolled into the age groupers. It has nothing to do with how hard someone tried. For all we know the 12:03 pro women tried harder than everyone else in the race. The pro field should not be significantly easier to get a slot from than most of the age group divisions.

I again agree with Frenchie...those Pros go SO MUCH harder than you and I it is not funny - from the cannon on, 100%. When (not often) they do blow up...they are like the rest of us. MOST quit...just walk away like nothing...I am all for these women getting to the line even if they walk...and when I pass a pro on the run (I win the lotto just as often)...I feel for them, as I know they are human too...and like Frenchie said - they are ALWAYS there to offer kind words to the lowly AG'ers out there.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Rule #6 was actually in one of Andrea's Triathlon articles....seems like a very even-headed person. I like her. I like Jamie Cleveland too. He's a lucky guy.



We'll agree to disagree on the pros slots. I'd hate to have ifs, ands or buts with the slot allocation. Just like the pro women money at LTF. Money was paid to every woman who crossed the line.....many of which were slower than the AGers. Good for them.

FYI the 12:03 IS definitely a tough gal. When you start talking cutoff times for pros you will then have to implement the same for AG'ers in fairness, as that really seems to be a playing field that you are looking to create (as sarcastic as the walk-a-thon heading). Quite frankly dealing with roll-downs because of cutoffs would be a huge mess. Imagine being tops in your AG only to be told you aren't getting a slot because X group slugged it out today.

What if the pros that didn't get slots were far faster than the AG'ers in numerous groups? Should they get the roll-downs from those AG'ers? Hypothecially if there are 3 m or f pros in the field and the 3rd of that group consistently posts blazing times thoughout their career and has one really bad race, should that person lose their slot due to roll-down even though they are guaranteed that slot? What about the AG'er that has that bad day but still qualifies for the allocated slot? Should it roll down to a pro or AG'er in a different group? This has a reciprocal effect you know.

The are pros are pros for a reason, they race in their own division and they are just as deserving of their allocated slots as the rest of the AG dominated field.

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"In the blocks you're a prisoner, the gun releases you."

Andrea Fisher fell (collpased) around the halfway point complaining of a slipped disc in her back. I know this because it happened right in front of my family, who were there as spectators. Supposedly they got a couple of photos of her coming by and lying on the ground, but I have yet to see them. Don't know exactly what happened to Desiree, but I did see both Andrea and Desiree walking the second lap, after Andrea felt better enough to get moving again, and they were talking and smiling. Apparently resigned to finish out of the money, but finish nonetheless.

They looked a heck of a lot better than all the racers who had to run around them. Smiling, laughing and chatting. A buddy of mine had trouble getting around them at the narrow section of the run course at the bridge near the ski jumps.

The pro's should not get so many Hawaii slots. I believe they got 10 slots for 23 "racers" many of whom dropped out. I have a friend who is a 49yo women who did an 11:36 and didn't qualify yet a women pro does a 12:03 and does. That isn't right.

The whole head start women only pro thing was a dissaster. Nobody I talked to up there all week liked it. I hope IMNA is paying attention. They are starting to piss some people off.

I saw them once just walking together cheering on people. Then I saw them again talking and shaking hands with volunteers at an aid station. I was pretty impressed by both of them for doing that. I suppose there are 2 choices if you are having a bad day. Quit and go back to your hotel or walk the marathon like a lot of people in ironman do.

Dan

What information is this question based upon? I caught Desiree early in the marathon, but she was definitely RUNNING. I'm sure she gave it her best shot.

However I do agree about the suggestion of a pro cutoff for Kona slots, whereby if for example you don't beat, say 5% of the AGers then the slot gets put into the AG pool for that sex.

Doug

here is your last slot from 2004, the very last "pro" finisher got a slot..almost 2 hours behind Kate Major!

11:14:16 MALONE KATHLEEN WPRO 11/13 1:01:55 5:55:23 4:10:01

Having trained and raced locally around these two women I can say this:

They are tough as nails. Tougher and FASTER than 99.9% of the men on this board. Desiree was vying for first place when it looks like she blew up on the bike. She could have called it a day right there, but didn't. Andrea has had back problems for the last year or so - if that's what happened, I can't believe she even finished.

These are two talented athletes and deserve 0.0% shit talking from a monday morning quarterback that couldn't even keep up on a training ride with either.

Oh by the way, Desiree already finished a close second to Kate Major at IM AZ and has won or come in second at a number of races through out the season - she races a lot and races hard.

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"I do my best to slay" - Matt Pike

[reply]Rule #6 - Never make any assumptions on how an athlete feels about his or her race after finishing.

I imagine both Andrea and Desiree have their own reasons and motivations. Kudos to their effort.

So, they should somehow change the rules of the race after the results are posted and base Kona slots on who "tried" the hardest?[/reply]

Or perhaps imbed a chip in every athlete at registration which measures "effort". Remove them at the finish line, run them through the computer and hand out awards and slots the next day. "Oh, sorry Mr. X. You crossed the line second, but you didn't put out enough effort."

And yes, kudos to Andrea and Desiree. Also, to Ken Glah, Bjorn and Clas and a woman pro at IM NZ this year; Normann Stadler and Chris Legh in Kona in past years; my coach last year in Kona, and I'm sure there are a number of other examples.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Speak for yourself. Glad to see the fastest Ironman racer cross first on Sunday.

keep in mind that there were 10 slots because there were none for the chicks (respectuously) in CDA

totally agree with what you say. for someone to criticize them is...pathetic at best.

I'm not saying they'd beat ME - just everyone else - maybe tie you 8-)

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"I do my best to slay" - Matt Pike

"The whole head start women only pro thing was a dissaster. Nobody I talked to up there all week liked it. I hope IMNA is paying attention. They are starting to piss some people off."

First of all, I was there racing and I thoughts the separate pro women start was awesome for the following reasons:

1. It allowed all pro women to compete on even footing. Traditionally the strong swimmers get penalized as the 63 min women end up spending 70 miles passing ~300 age group men and get a huge legal draft benefit

2. Pro women get to race unencumbered. No dealing with "dudes whose race effectively end in T1" who won't let them get by on the bike. For some reason, most of us guys have a huge mental issue with letting a girl get by. This gets in the way of their race

3. Pro women only get to key off each other...no using guys on the run course for "pacing"

4. Age group men can race in peace knowing that they are not inadvertantly blocking a pro woman or putting her into a drafting position. They can also swim peacefully knowing that they are not going to kick someone like Heather Fuhr in the face at the first turnaround buoy and potentially take a champion out of the race.

As for Andrea and Desiree, I passed both, walking at mile 12. They were pleasant and cheerful. I urged them to run, but instead the ladies shared the good karma and told me "go get em...you are looking strong". How cool is that ? Yes, I had to veer all of 2 ft off my line to pass them...big deal !

Finally pro women slots...they are what they are. The rules are set up front. Just accept them. If you want to go to Hawaii, you just need to train harder, eat better, sleep more, have good genetics and race faster. Me, I was 10:33 in 35-39, 3 months short of my 40th birthday. Perhaps I can keep the same speed for next year and get into Hawaii. Maybe...maybe not. If I wanted to get a slot in my current age group, I should have swam 8 min faster and biked 10 min faster. The fact that I do zero swimming and biking all winter and just XC ski might have an impact on my swim and bike. Its a choice I make and I live with it.

Congrats to everyone who got into Hawaii including the last pro woman. She deserves it. It takes lots of guts to put your name out there and race PRO. Most of us will never understand that.

Dev

These woman are both tough, don't get me wrong. I just dont agree with the faster and tougher than 99.9% part...I can think of 15 or so guys on this board that are faster...now tougher..I don't know how you guage that. I am glad they finished and thats really great to finish something they started.

[reply]These woman are both tough, don't get me wrong. I just dont agree with the faster and tougher than 99.9% part...I can think of 15 or so guys on this board that are faster...now tougher..I don't know how you guage that. I am glad they finished and thats really great to finish something they started.[/reply]

I would think you could guage toughness by the fact that they finished knowing they wouldn't have a time anywhere close to something they might be happy with. But they finished nonetheless and that is awesome.
They have my respect for sure and I thought having the women race in that fashion was awesome. Didn't affect my race or likely anybody else's as well. Maybe a TINY amount of the men but I bet the front of the pack men age groupers thought it was great as well.

Not to harp on the negative, but how many DNF's have these two had over the years and does that factor into the "toughness" factor?

Guys, you can argue till you are blue in the face about why Desiree and Andrea walked to the finish. Like I said in another thread, "Faster or slower, we are all part of the same Ironman family". Just accept that they wanted to to FINISH this race, like your rank and file age grouper. Unless you are in someone's body you have no idea what their personal reasons are. I applaud them for following through.

"I hope IMNA is paying attention. They are starting to piss some people off."

It shows. It took almost 12 hours for them to get 2,000 people to sign up for next year. :)

Your comment about people having to run around them makes it sound as if they shouldn't be allowed to walk.

I would say if you dont want your performance to be critiqued, than you probably shouldnt be a pro athlete in any sport. You race with the pros in any sport and you under the microscope. If you do well, you want people to notice and reward you for it, well there is the other side of the coin as well.