Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
IMKONA cant last
Quote | Reply
I just cant see Ironman leaving the World Championships in Kona every year going forward now.


Salt Lake City 2022 has 3597 starters.
Kona 2019 had 2129 starters overall.


Thats a massive difference in profits for Ironman.

If this year in Salt Lake is a success, which it most likely will be, I think what we will see is a rotation with it going back to Kona every few years. Ironman usually does a 3 yr contract with a location and then have the World Championships go back to Kona the 4th year.



Unless the 2 day format they are doing this year in Kona is a success. Then I guess Ironman would keep doing that.


But accommodation is always going to be an issue with large numbers racing in Kona.


Ironman would still need to run a race in Kona for age groupers when the WC isnt there, to keep the tradition going and allowing more "Slower" age groupers to keep racing. they could probably charge $2000 entry fee and still fill the race.


Id expect the expo to be massive in Salt Lake as everyone within the USA with that has something for the expo can just drive there, rather than get ripped off by hawaiian airlines and truck hire in Hawaii.


Some professionals also want it moved as Kona mainly suits the one type of athlete in general with the odd exception.


Guessing we will know by the end of the year.






------------------
it doesnt matter what you say, someone on here will pick a fight over it.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Do you mean Saint George, Utah?
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [lonniecdams] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Salt Lake City is where the championships are?! Shoot! Better head 4 hours north!
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [SwizBeats] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Crap. I should have flown into SLC instead of Vegas. And it looks like Sand Hollow reservoir is hundreds of miles from the airport. Shhh. St George isn’t a salt lake suburb :)
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [eblackadder] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Wait, so the desperate registration emails sent to people that weren’t really legacy and AWA to do StG didn’t have an effect on this increase?

Let’s rephrase that differently. If they offered a KQ to all the AWA Gold and Silver, how many participants would they have at Kona? If you look at it through that lens, maybe the registration numbers at StG are not as impressive as you make them seem to be.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In isolation to just the IM WC race you might be right, but there are over 50 races to qualify and the dream of Kona has an impact on how many entrants they have - both for direct qualification and legacy.

If that impact is only 5% and races average 2,000 participants then the benefit of a bigger race is more than offset at 5,000 less competing.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think that the WC could be anywhere in the planet.. but IM Kona is the race that all triathletes dream to race at least once.

If in the future, IM Kona is not anymore IM WC, I don't care, but I would like to have the opportunity to race there, with qualification, with "run-for-your-life-5minutes-sold-out" registration...

And.. if in this case, not being a WC, IM Kona is a not so crowded event, better for me.

About the IM WC, if it is in a special place, where I would love to visit, and not expensive travel... I would take any opportunity to qualify...

But don't loose the perspective: which percentage of regional triahtletes (from US) take start in IM St.George? Or chatanoga? South Africa?

Kona is a Worldwide race. If the race goes "local" it would be not so nice.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [ivantriker] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've posted on various forums about this many times. To be honest the amount of abuse I have received following these posts is not nice. However, fwiw here is my suggestion

1. Kona is W/C venu every 4 years, qualification only, no legacy spots no celebrity spots
2. Hold Kona Every year, in non W/C years, Celebs, Legacy and normal entry by application - maybe similar to Challenge Roth, that sells out in 5 mins
3. Rotate W/C for non Kona years, Nice, Lanza, South Africa, Australia, Mexico etc, would be amazing, and would have no trouble filling every spot through qualification

Why? Different courses suit different athletes, Kona suits a certain type of athlete. Kona is unbelievably expensive for everyone outside the US, by rotating W/C, it would open it up to more AG athletes, also, October is almost impossible for people in some professions such as teachers. By not having to qualify for Kona every year, it would make Kona available to normal AG athletes

Would this devalue Kona? in my view no, Kona would still be the event that Pros want to win, and it would still have an elite entry list, it would just not be the W/C event.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mattsurf wrote:
I've posted on various forums about this many times. To be honest the amount of abuse I have received following these posts is not nice. However, fwiw here is my suggestion

1. Kona is W/C venu every 4 years, qualification only, no legacy spots no celebrity spots
2. Hold Kona Every year, in non W/C years, Celebs, Legacy and normal entry by application - maybe similar to Challenge Roth, that sells out in 5 mins
3. Rotate W/C for non Kona years, Nice, Lanza, South Africa, Australia, Mexico etc, would be amazing, and would have no trouble filling every spot through qualification

Why? Different courses suit different athletes, Kona suits a certain type of athlete. Kona is unbelievably expensive for everyone outside the US, by rotating W/C, it would open it up to more AG athletes, also, October is almost impossible for people in some professions such as teachers. By not having to qualify for Kona every year, it would make Kona available to normal AG athletes

Would this devalue Kona? in my view no, Kona would still be the event that Pros want to win, and it would still have an elite entry list, it would just not be the W/C event.

I agree with 1 and 3, but not sure about having Kona as a non W/C event. I think Kona wouldn't be devalued for Pros even if it wasn't a WC, but it would be for age groupers. A huge part of the attraction to Kona is that you have to qualify for it. People aren't going to want to spend $10k and travel half way across the globe to race a non W/C event in the stinking heat. There are a ton of much cheaper, much better races on offer.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
zedzded wrote:

I agree with 1 and 3, but not sure about having Kona as a non W/C event. I think Kona wouldn't be devalued for Pros even if it wasn't a WC, but it would be for age groupers. A huge part of the attraction to Kona is that you have to qualify for it. People aren't going to want to spend $10k and travel half way across the globe to race a non W/C event in the stinking heat. There are a ton of much cheaper, much better races on offer.

Personally I'm not sure I would spend $10,000 to go to Kona if it wasn't a W/C event, however, the popularity of the Legacy program shows that lot of people are
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You'll note that if its purely a numbers game, then Ironman could easily rotate the WC to venues which could support with 4000-5000 participants AND run a guaranteed to be sold out Kona as a regular IM at 2500 participants at the same time.

The better question though is - what does the funnel look like for people coming into the sport (new customers) and staying in the sport (repeat customers) under each scenario.

My opinion is that they should probably rotate it just in fairness and for the fact that most similar sports tend to rotate their world championships - but there are a lot of assumptions as far as how to grow the sport and where you put your WC.
Last edited by: timbasile: May 2, 22 7:03
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mattsurf wrote:
I've posted on various forums about this many times. To be honest the amount of abuse I have received following these posts is not nice. However, fwiw here is my suggestion

1. Kona is W/C venu every 4 years, qualification only, no legacy spots no celebrity spots
2. Hold Kona Every year, in non W/C years, Celebs, Legacy and normal entry by application - maybe similar to Challenge Roth, that sells out in 5 mins
3. Rotate W/C for non Kona years, Nice, Lanza, South Africa, Australia, Mexico etc, would be amazing, and would have no trouble filling every spot through qualification

Why? Different courses suit different athletes, Kona suits a certain type of athlete. Kona is unbelievably expensive for everyone outside the US, by rotating W/C, it would open it up to more AG athletes, also, October is almost impossible for people in some professions such as teachers. By not having to qualify for Kona every year, it would make Kona available to normal AG athletes

Would this devalue Kona? in my view no, Kona would still be the event that Pros want to win, and it would still have an elite entry list, it would just not be the W/C event.

Like another poster I agree on 1 and 3. I love the idea of rotating the WC, but keeping Kona in there every 2 or 3 or 4 years.

On 2, I don't really care. It would be cool to have it a non WC every year, I'm sure there are tons of ppl who could never KQ who would go race a non WC there just to experience the course and location. It'd be like a bad golfer playing Augusta national, then when they watch the masters they can say theyve been there and know what it's like.

Flip side, would there be any benefit to giving the Kona locals a year or two off every cycle and just have the WC there every few years? I guess even if you do that some people are always going to be disgruntled no matter how infrequently it's held but just a thought. Just like lake placid it sounds like the level of local sour-ness toward Ironman may be growing? Idk I've never been there.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mattsurf wrote:
Kona is unbelievably expensive for everyone outside the US, by rotating W/C, it would open it up to more AG athletes, also, October is almost impossible for people in some professions such as teachers. By not having to qualify for Kona every year, it would make Kona available to normal AG athletes

You just described me. A great race and a lot of luck led to a KQ last week at IMTX, but I had to turn it down. I'm a teacher with two kids in school-- a trip to Hawaii in October is about as difficult as it gets. Had the World Championship been in the summer I would have snatched it up, pretty much regardless of location. Had it been closer to home (Chicago) and less costly, I might have tried to make it work via a condensed 5-day trip, which is what I did for IMTX.

Given the cost, travel, and timing of Kona, it won't be feasible for me until my kids are out of the house and/or I'm retired. That kind of sucks, although I still love the sport and will keep shooting for KQs. I'm grateful that the rotating 70.3 championship offers an alternate goal to chase even if it is one that is easier, and therefore less satisfying, to achieve.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wonder how Salt Lake would be to swim in?

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [david] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
david wrote:
I wonder how Salt Lake would be to swim in?

Buoyant like the ocean. Duh!

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [david] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It’s super shallow, you could just stand up. It’s now quite like the Dead Sea for buoyancy, but more than the ocean.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mattsurf wrote:
I've posted on various forums about this many times. To be honest the amount of abuse I have received following these posts is not nice. However, fwiw here is my suggestion

1. Kona is W/C venu every 4 years, qualification only, no legacy spots no celebrity spots
2. Hold Kona Every year, in non W/C years, Celebs, Legacy and normal entry by application - maybe similar to Challenge Roth, that sells out in 5 mins
3. Rotate W/C for non Kona years, Nice, Lanza, South Africa, Australia, Mexico etc, would be amazing, and would have no trouble filling every spot through qualification

Why? Different courses suit different athletes, Kona suits a certain type of athlete. Kona is unbelievably expensive for everyone outside the US, by rotating W/C, it would open it up to more AG athletes, also, October is almost impossible for people in some professions such as teachers. By not having to qualify for Kona every year, it would make Kona available to normal AG athletes

Would this devalue Kona? in my view no, Kona would still be the event that Pros want to win, and it would still have an elite entry list, it would just not be the W/C event.

i'm with you more or less 100% on this. shame people are abusing you about this - your position seems perfectly respectful to me.

costs for almost everyone are high. even if you're an american but live, say, on the east coast, kona is a hell of a long flight. i'd also think that IM would benefit from just going with the safe investments: races like roth attract thousands of keen participants every year. 100 000 people turn out to watch mixed-team relays in hamburg. the french pack halls to watch indoor tri. just go with it!

also very much agree that it would be great to see different types of world championship courses. how cool would it be to have every tapered and shaved and racing a flat, crazy fast course like almere or cozumel? or on a crazy challenging course like embrunman?

take all of this with as much salt as you like - i've never done kona, so i don't have any first-hand experience of the unique magic there. but i have been a big fan of the sport for 25+ years, and feel like i know the sport and its history well.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
littlepete wrote:
I just cant see Ironman leaving the World Championships in Kona every year going forward now.


Salt Lake City 2022 has 3597 starters.
Kona 2019 had 2129 starters overall.


Thats a massive difference in profits for Ironman.

If this year in Salt Lake is a success, which it most likely will be, I think what we will see is a rotation with it going back to Kona every few years. Ironman usually does a 3 yr contract with a location and then have the World Championships go back to Kona the 4th year.



Unless the 2 day format they are doing this year in Kona is a success. Then I guess Ironman would keep doing that.


But accommodation is always going to be an issue with large numbers racing in Kona.


Ironman would still need to run a race in Kona for age groupers when the WC isnt there, to keep the tradition going and allowing more "Slower" age groupers to keep racing. they could probably charge $2000 entry fee and still fill the race.


Id expect the expo to be massive in Salt Lake as everyone within the USA with that has something for the expo can just drive there, rather than get ripped off by hawaiian airlines and truck hire in Hawaii.


Some professionals also want it moved as Kona mainly suits the one type of athlete in general with the odd exception.


Guessing we will know by the end of the year.





Nah, you’re wrong.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Changpao wrote:


You just described me. A great race and a lot of luck led to a KQ last week at IMTX, but I had to turn it down. I'm a teacher with two kids in school-- a trip to Hawaii in October is about as difficult as it gets. Had the World Championship been in the summer I would have snatched it up, pretty much regardless of location. Had it been closer to home (Chicago) and less costly, I might have tried to make it work via a condensed 5-day trip, which is what I did for IMTX.

Given the cost, travel, and timing of Kona, it won't be feasible for me until my kids are out of the house and/or I'm retired. That kind of sucks, although I still love the sport and will keep shooting for KQs. I'm grateful that the rotating 70.3 championship offers an alternate goal to chase even if it is one that is easier, and therefore less satisfying, to achieve.


I'm sorry to hear that, but well done on KQ performance, I think that a lot of training has more to do with your performance than luck.

If you get the chance to come to Europe, do Challenge Roth, should be on every good triathlete's bucket list, great place to start a family vacation
Last edited by: mattsurf: May 2, 22 12:58
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
littlepete wrote:
I just cant see Ironman leaving the World Championships in Kona every year going forward now.


Salt Lake City 2022 has 3597 starters.
Kona 2019 had 2129 starters overall.


Thats a massive difference in profits for Ironman.

If this year in Salt Lake is a success, which it most likely will be, I think what we will see is a rotation with it going back to Kona every few years. Ironman usually does a 3 yr contract with a location and then have the World Championships go back to Kona the 4th year.



Unless the 2 day format they are doing this year in Kona is a success. Then I guess Ironman would keep doing that.


But accommodation is always going to be an issue with large numbers racing in Kona.


Ironman would still need to run a race in Kona for age groupers when the WC isnt there, to keep the tradition going and allowing more "Slower" age groupers to keep racing. they could probably charge $2000 entry fee and still fill the race.


Id expect the expo to be massive in Salt Lake as everyone within the USA with that has something for the expo can just drive there, rather than get ripped off by hawaiian airlines and truck hire in Hawaii.


Some professionals also want it moved as Kona mainly suits the one type of athlete in general with the odd exception.


Guessing we will know by the end of the year.

You are looking at 1 piece of the income statement. How much do they earn in sponsorship between the 2 locations, how much does the city "kick in", what are the police costs, how many people will keep trying to qualify for Kona vs. another location, their is so much more to profit than just the age group revenue.






Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mattsurf wrote:
I've posted on various forums about this many times. To be honest the amount of abuse I have received following these posts is not nice. However, fwiw here is my suggestion

1. Kona is W/C venu every 4 years, qualification only, no legacy spots no celebrity spots
2. Hold Kona Every year, in non W/C years, Celebs, Legacy and normal entry by application - maybe similar to Challenge Roth, that sells out in 5 mins
3. Rotate W/C for non Kona years, Nice, Lanza, South Africa, Australia, Mexico etc, would be amazing, and would have no trouble filling every spot through qualification

Why? Different courses suit different athletes, Kona suits a certain type of athlete. Kona is unbelievably expensive for everyone outside the US, by rotating W/C, it would open it up to more AG athletes, also, October is almost impossible for people in some professions such as teachers. By not having to qualify for Kona every year, it would make Kona available to normal AG athletes

Would this devalue Kona? in my view no, Kona would still be the event that Pros want to win, and it would still have an elite entry list, it would just not be the W/C event.


I agree with you on this except for one point: hold Kona as the WC every 5 years, instead of every 4 years. This allows a few things to happen.

  1. It allows you to hold the WC in Kona on big round numbered years. e.g. 45, 50, 55, 60, etc year anniversaries of the sport. Use those years to throw a big celebration bash where it all began.
  2. You can properly rotate the WC around on each continent, with your other 4 years. Within each cycle, North America gets 1 year, Europe gets 1 year, Asia/AUS/NZ gets 1 year and then the other can be South America or Africa/Mid-East. As an example only - I only picked continents like that since that's where the sport is currently strongest (pick your own groupings), but a 5 year cycle allows you to have 4+1 instead of a 3+1.
Last edited by: timbasile: May 2, 22 13:12
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
zedzded wrote:
People aren't going to want to spend $10k and travel half way across the globe to race a non W/C event in the stinking heat. There are a ton of much cheaper, much better races on offer.

While there are cheaper and better options to offer, there still is a MAJOR population in this sport and the general public that watched Kona coverage on some random Sunday afternoon on ABC. I am one of them.

I grew up watching the Boston marathon and the Kona specials year after year. And honestly I don't ever think I'll qualify for either. I'm also not rich enough to buy my way into either.

But if it turned to your normal race and was the same entry fee as any other IM race you bet your ass I would be able to convince the wife to go to Hawaii for a week for a vacation.

While you probably wouldn't get your average WC qualifier to head out there, you would be able to fill a start list with people who have always wanted to do that race and couldn't care less if it was a WC race or not. Let's not forget it originally wasn't a WC...it was just a race to see and some of us look to THAT history as being important.

If they were to cycle through other places and not hold a non-WC race there then sure it would cheapen it but keeping a presence there in some fashion is more than just a world championship.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [Vetratten] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As an average ironman athlete, Kona is the only reason to come back for more. Took me eight ironmans to earn a spot in 2018.Others earn it with a legacy spot an equally admirable journey. It is the origin of ironman and the pinnacle of the journey for the AG athletes. a trip to Kona is not cheap, but the races arent either, the time training, the bikes, the gear. The overall expense of the sport to torture yourself is ridiculous. People are always amazed when I tell them how expensive the entry into an individual race is.
The kona course isnt even nice. The swim is amazing, but it is all downhill from there. A lonely ride down the queen K with little to no ocean view and then a run across an industrial park and main highway. You dont feel like your in Hawaii when your racing, you feel like your racing on the Tarmac at an airport in vegas. I think almost every other race course in America is better. But it is the privlege of being there where all the historic greats in ironman trod. A moment to imagine and feel their pain and their journey. You cant move that race somewhere else without completely diluting the experience. The failure rate to show will be substantial.
The AWA designation is a fail in my opinion. Instead of that hokey designation for finish times, they should tier the finish times for the athletes with different finisher medals. This would be a motivator for first time finishers to come back and race again. Top 20% are ironman, 20%-50% are tinman, and 50% are greater are aluminum-man or something like that( or gold, silver, bronze finishers).
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well if you are correct I am so glad I did my dozen or so Ironman races over in Kona in the good old days of the 80's 90's and early 2000's. Nothing like it as far as I was concerned, I also loved my 25 IMC races in Penticton but they couldn't come close to the fun in Kona.

If I was still racing today I would go back to Kona anytime, in fact I still do except to just have a lazy vacation now. The sport has changed so much since those early triathlon days in 1981 when I started, most of us now who were racing back in the early 80's are older, I guess the younger people today don't see it as the same as we did... Well have fun in St George with your 2129 starting buddies, I shudder to think of that size starting line.
Quote Reply
Re: IMKONA cant last [hercules] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What was interesting on the weekend at ironman Australia was that the Hawaii spots were actually hard to give away for the first time in memory.

They were being rolled all over the place to get rid of them.Who knows maybe the Aussies don't want to travel yet but it was unusual.
Quote Reply

Prev Next