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IM70.3 run
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Hi,

I finished yesterday IM70.3 St Pölten and I am slightly disappointed. Did my first in Wimbleball in 2015. This was my 5th after Wimbleball, Kraichgau, Rapperswil Jona and Zell am see. Did 3 full distance: Frankfurt, Austria and Zürich. I am AG 35-39.

And yet, i fell like I am stuck in a rut. My swimming has been at 38mins for half distance since I started but truthfully I don't swim much.

On the other hand I have improved my ftp from 205w to 231w this past season using trainerroad. My best improvement yet.

Initially I though my performance was poor. I Avg 171w with a 183w NP yesterday a 3h03m bike but for comparison this guy

https://twitter.com/...769563427033089?s=19

Did 2h44m with 200w so it feels my time is deserved with how much I have output.

What I don't get is my run... I run a 1h43m half marathon and yet, I get to half distance and my legs push a 5.20 min/km pace in the first K and it goes downhill from there. I walk a few aid stations, my chest starts weighing like 2 tons, legs weigh twice that and I end up doing a 2hours half marathon. Surely this can't be right...

Here's my data for this race if useful: https://www.strava.com/...-US&v=1527423546[/url]
https://www.strava.com/...-US&v=1527547736
https://www.strava.com/...-US&v=1527547722

My PB is still Kraichgau in 2016 at 5h38m. Meanwhile I frustrate myself year after year in a futile attempt to improve and then I see guys like Urs (leader of AG 35-39 yesterday) doing a 4h12m race.

I am doing again Zell am See this year. I have 3 months till then. What can I do to improve my run after the bike until then?

Any suggestions besides dropping tri and trying knitting instead?

Paulo Matos
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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pmatos wrote:
Hi,

I finished yesterday IM70.3 St Pölten and I am slightly disappointed. Did my first in Wimbleball in 2015. This was my 5th after Wimbleball, Kraichgau, Rapperswil Jona and Zell am see. Did 3 full distance: Frankfurt, Austria and Zürich. I am AG 35-39.

And yet, i fell like I am stuck in a rut. My swimming has been at 38mins for half distance since I started but truthfully I don't swim much.

On the other hand I have improved my ftp from 205w to 231w this past season using trainerroad. My best improvement yet.

Initially I though my performance was poor. I Avg 171w with a 183w NP yesterday a 3h03m bike but for comparison this guy

https://twitter.com/...769563427033089?s=19

Did 2h44m with 200w so it feels my time is deserved with how much I have output.

What I don't get is my run... I run a 1h43m half marathon and yet, I get to half distance and my legs push a 5.20 min/km pace in the first K and it goes downhill from there. I walk a few aid stations, my chest starts weighing like 2 tons, legs weigh twice that and I end up doing a 2hours half marathon. Surely this can't be right...

Here's my data for this race if useful: https://www.strava.com/...-US&v=1527423546[/url]
https://www.strava.com/...-US&v=1527547736
https://www.strava.com/...-US&v=1527547722

My PB is still Kraichgau in 2016 at 5h38m. Meanwhile I frustrate myself year after year in a futile attempt to improve and then I see guys like Urs (leader of AG 35-39 yesterday) doing a 4h12m race.

I am doing again Zell am See this year. I have 3 months till then. What can I do to improve my run after the bike until then?

Any suggestions besides dropping tri and trying knitting instead?

What is your bike and run volume like?

Putting aside your power stats for one second, if you're coming out of T2 fucked, running 5.20s and never getting any quicker then you're either over-biking or haven't done the run training. It's normally a case of forcing yourself to slow down in those first few kms. How did you feel on the bike, what was your HR like? I seem to find that many people over-bike even guys with PMs then they struggle on the bike. As a rough guide I ride at a level where I could still hold a conversation, I've seen guys riding where they can only utter a few words at a time.
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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If you log all your activity on strava, then it's looks like you're only running 2 hrs per week for 12.5mi, and biking 2.5 hrs per week for 38.5mi this year, and look to have an average weekly total of training hours of around 5hrs.

I'd say you were doing well off those totals. AG podiums are more likely to be doing substantially more in terms of volume and training variety for faster times.

Swim. Overbike. Walk.
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Re: IM70.3 run [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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You say you don’t swim often. Do you think the swim is taking more out of you on race day than you realize?
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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1) I used to underestimate the swim. I realized how it screwed me on the run when I went into a race with a poor swim training. Don’t underestimate the swim. I bet your HR coming out of the water is at the highest point of the race.

2) bike volume!

3) work on your position. 3:03 on 183W is not good unless it’s a very hilly race. My position is ok and on 183W, I would expect to be around 2:40

4) what is your open HM time? 1:43 may not be that bad. I am about 10 min slower than my open HM time.
Last edited by: KingMidas: May 28, 18 19:45
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Re: IM70.3 run [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
What is your bike and run volume like?

Putting aside your power stats for one second, if you're coming out of T2 fucked, running 5.20s and never getting any quicker then you're either over-biking or haven't done the run training. It's normally a case of forcing yourself to slow down in those first few kms. How did you feel on the bike, what was your HR like? I seem to find that many people over-bike even guys with PMs then they struggle on the bike. As a rough guide I ride at a level where I could still hold a conversation, I've seen guys riding where they can only utter a few words at a time.

Well my attempt this season was to follow trainerroad 3x per week, 2 runs and 1 swim and 1 rest day. 1 workout per day with two, sometimes only 1 TRX workout.
So, around ~8-10 hrs per week max I guess. With the weather improving, since April, I have been doing 2x OW swims, 2 outdoor rides (one long 2hrs, one short 1hr) and 2 runs (one long 2hrs, one short 1hr).

My HR avg is 137 which is middle Z2. I went up to Z4, 151 during uphills. So I don't think I should be messed up during the run.

Paulo Matos
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Re: IM70.3 run [GrimOopNorth] [ In reply to ]
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GrimOopNorth wrote:
If you log all your activity on strava, then it's looks like you're only running 2 hrs per week for 12.5mi, and biking 2.5 hrs per week for 38.5mi this year, and look to have an average weekly total of training hours of around 5hrs.

I'd say you were doing well off those totals. AG podiums are more likely to be doing substantially more in terms of volume and training variety for faster times.

Err, I have probably most of my workouts on strava. On strava I don't have strenght workouts and some swims but I guess I totalled about 8-10hrs during most high vol weeks and 5-8 on the weeks before the race.

Paulo Matos
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Re: IM70.3 run [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
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Parkland wrote:
You say you don’t swim often. Do you think the swim is taking more out of you on race day than you realize?

Not sure I understand the comment. I spent maybe 8 weeks during Dec and Jan with no swimming. Otherwise I swim 1hr per week on the pool until April and 2 hrs open water per week since. Pool is quite far away so it's easy to do open water for me, but not during winter.

Paulo Matos
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Re: IM70.3 run [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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KingMidas wrote:
1) I used to underestimate the swim. I realized how it screwed me on the run when I went into a race with a poor swim training. Don’t underestimate the swim. I bet your HR coming out of the water is at the highest point of the race.

2) bike volume!

3) work on your position. 3:03 on 183W is not good unless it’s a very hilly race. My position is ok and on 183W, I would expect to be around 2:40

4) what is your open HM time? 1:43 may not be that bad. I am about 10 min slower than my open HM time.

1) Probably you're right. I swim 1, max 2 hrs per week but why would that be an issue for the run?

2) I have been doing 3-4 hrs up to April on trainerroad and 3 hours outdoors since then.

3) Position on the bike? How can you _work_ on it? Should I get it checked out?

4) HM time is 1:43 as mentioned. 10 mins slower would be 1:53, I think that was my time for Kraichgau but can't match that since.

Paulo Matos
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe you ran out of fuel???
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Re: IM70.3 run [motorcity] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds like your results are reasonably in line with with what you can expect from not training very much.

Sounds cruel and flippant maybe, but: You're swimming slow because you don't swim enough. You're not biking enough to be able to do a fast 56 miles leaving your legs in a runnable state, and you're not running enough to be able to bang out a fast 13 miles on tired legs.

Raise your training to 10 -12 hours a week, all quality sessions (not 2 hour rides at 100 heart rate), and you'll notice a difference for sure.
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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pmatos wrote:
KingMidas wrote:
1) I used to underestimate the swim. I realized how it screwed me on the run when I went into a race with a poor swim training. Don’t underestimate the swim. I bet your HR coming out of the water is at the highest point of the race.

2) bike volume!

3) work on your position. 3:03 on 183W is not good unless it’s a very hilly race. My position is ok and on 183W, I would expect to be around 2:40

4) what is your open HM time? 1:43 may not be that bad. I am about 10 min slower than my open HM time.

1) Probably you're right. I swim 1, max 2 hrs per week but why would that be an issue for the run?
You have a finite amount of energy resources. A HIM is a 5.5 hr even for you and I’m guessing about 2 hrs longer than a marathon for you. The less swim fit you are, the higher your HR is and you’re doing it for 10 min longer than people are who are swim fit. Plus you are using mental resources to finish.

2) I have been doing 3-4 hrs up to April on trainerroad and 3 hours outdoors since then.

Do the mid volume half distance plan.

3) Position on the bike? How can you _work_ on it? Should I get it checked out? Yes.

4) HM time is 1:43 as mentioned. 10 mins slower would be 1:53, I think that was my time for Kraichgau but can't match that since.

As people have said, your times align with your training.
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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Guys, thank you for all the replies. I think we have agreed that the times align with my training volume.

Without a coach (I understand this would probably be best but I can't commit financially at the moment) what's the best resource to devise a good training plan?

Paulo Matos
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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keep using trainerroad and start doing the BarryP run training (search for it on the forum), get your run volume up to 40+mpw.
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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Why not just use the TrainerRoad HIM plan. It includes all the bike/run/swims. Pcik the volume and run with it. I am doing the IM plan and love it. Just sat on a trainer for 3 hours for the 1st time ever.
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Re: IM70.3 run [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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there's not enough easy running in the TR programs imo
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Re: IM70.3 run [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
there's not enough easy running in the TR programs imo

I agree. I do the same. Use the bike plan and do BarryP plan for running and my own swim stuff.
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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pmatos wrote:
Guys, thank you for all the replies. I think we have agreed that the times align with my training volume.

Without a coach (I understand this would probably be best but I can't commit financially at the moment) what's the best resource to devise a good training plan?

You don't need a coach.

- join a swim squad
- run lots, 1 x long easy run, 1 x tempo, 1 x threshold 1 x brick

Increase your training volume up to 12 - 14 hours and you'll see progress,
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Re: IM70.3 run [pmatos] [ In reply to ]
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You need to increase your volume a lot. The guys winning your AG probably train 15+ hrs per week and are faster so they get more volume in per hour. You say you can't finish your run but it doesn't sound like you even run the total distance of the race (13.1 miles) per week. Of course you will struggle on the run. Same with the bike, same with the swim. I run 45-50 miles per week (which is a lot compared to what most people are) plus big bike and swim volumes. Bump up the volume, don't worry about structured workouts. Just swim, bike, and run more.
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Re: IM70.3 run [Conky] [ In reply to ]
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While train more is the easy answer, I also wonder if you're racing smart. For example, you're clearly under-performing relative to potential on the bike. On the bike are you managing the terrain well? Are you braking on descents or using them to pick up speed? Are you using your momentum on rollers to carry you partially up the hill. Are you a crappy climber and spinning up hills at 100 rpm in a granny gear, or are you doing enough low-cadence interval works so you have a few matches to burn?
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Re: IM70.3 run [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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wintershade wrote:
While train more is the easy answer, I also wonder if you're racing smart. For example, you're clearly under-performing relative to potential on the bike. On the bike are you managing the terrain well? Are you braking on descents or using them to pick up speed? Are you using your momentum on rollers to carry you partially up the hill. Are you a crappy climber and spinning up hills at 100 rpm in a granny gear, or are you doing enough low-cadence interval works so you have a few matches to burn?

Wait what?
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Re: IM70.3 run [walie] [ In reply to ]
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walie wrote:
wintershade wrote:
While train more is the easy answer, I also wonder if you're racing smart. For example, you're clearly under-performing relative to potential on the bike. On the bike are you managing the terrain well? Are you braking on descents or using them to pick up speed? Are you using your momentum on rollers to carry you partially up the hill. Are you a crappy climber and spinning up hills at 100 rpm in a granny gear, or are you doing enough low-cadence interval works so you have a few matches to burn?

Wait what?

This blog post summarizes my thoughts the subject of cadence on hilly courses. There is a growing body of research that backs this up. I just don’t have time to find the citations at the moment.

http://blog.trisutto.com/low-cadence-triathlon/
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Re: IM70.3 run [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure I agree that spinning faster is always a bad thing. It's one of those personal sweet spot things.

I'll usually spin at 95 RPM and that will go higher when I'm pushing it. For instance when doing FTP tests I'll settle at 100-102 RPM as my natural cadence.


I tend to have a fast spin when outdoor riding, especially when climbing and I'm at 4.4W/Kg and can out-climb anyone I usually ride with. I realise that it makes my heart rate 4 or 5 bpm faster than a 90RPM cadence but the trade-off is my legs feel fresher after the bike.

I can also stomp at 75 RPM for extended periods of time if i need to but it feels like i'm doing "strength work" and not naturally riding.
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Re: IM70.3 run [RCCo] [ In reply to ]
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I think your numbers fits.
Last season 2x swim per week on average (some 1 some 3), 40 min swim time, 2:42 bike time on 186 NP (85kg guy), following trainer road middle distance 3x rides per week, doing the long ride outside when the summer hit. And a 1:59 HIM on WAY too low run volume (like 10-12 km/week). You are running a bit more than me but maybe the course was better, maybe you messed up the hydration/nutrition.
But i think it is just a matter of putting in mor time tbh as others say too.
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Re: IM70.3 run [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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KingMidas wrote:
Sean H wrote:
there's not enough easy running in the TR programs imo


I agree. I do the same. Use the bike plan and do BarryP plan for running and my own swim stuff.

The barryp suff looks quite complex. Is there a brief explanation of how it works somewhere?

Paulo Matos
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