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I'm so sick of tubeless tires
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Here I am, once again during cyclocross season attempting to mount a set of Vittoria CX tires to my Stans Iron Cross rims and, once again, it has turned into an hour long cursing session because I can't get the fuckin thing on the rim. I find that I have less than a 50% success rate when mounting new tires and, most of the time, it's because it's too hard to get it on the rim. I get it within a few inches of fulling seating, then i lose a little grip and the other end of the tire slowly unseats before my eyes. It's infuriating and, even if I do succeed, it always ends with sore fingers and wrists. Is there some trick to do this? Is there a machine I can purchase to help? I don't care what it costs.
Last edited by: jhammond: Oct 11, 20 13:10
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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Make sure both beads are in the deepest part of the rim channel when attempting that final peel-over. Also, soapy water along the bead/rim will help get that last part over the rim.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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Yep easy. I had same problem, needed 2 levers and a lot of swearing. Until I was guided to just make sure the bead goes into the central channel of the rim then the tyre will go on easily. Since then I have remounted many tyres super easily and never needed a single lever.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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I have a couple of older tubed rims where the tires fit more loosely than a tubeless rim. I mount those stupidly tight tires on one of those with an inner tube and let them stretch for a day or two.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Ha me too, Got the rear one on with my large one chamber pump, but just put a tube in the front rim. Its so much easier....until I get a flat.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
Kool-Stop Tire Bead Jack




https://www.youtube.com/...b_channel=LarryGrimm

if you need that, you made a bad purchase decision either with wheel or tire. everything manufactured post-ETRTO standards of last year should be easy peasy.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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jhammond wrote:
Here I am, once again during cyclocross season attempting to mount a set of Vittoria CX tires to my Stans Iron Cross rims and, once again, it has turned into an hour long cursing session because I can't get the fuckin thing on the rim. I find that I have less than a 50% success rate when mounting new tires and, most of the time, it's because it's too hard to get it on the rim. I get it within a few inches of fulling seating, then i lose a little grip and the other end of the tire slowly unseats before my eyes. It's infuriating and, even if I do succeed, it always ends with sore fingers and wrists. Is there some trick to do this? Is there a machine I can purchase to help? I don't care what it costs.

Dude, I feel your pain especially for road tubeless... and anything below 40mm tbh. As the tires get bigger they get easier for me to mount. 2.3" and 2.6" mtb tires? I can mount those pretty easily pretty consistently. Road tubeless is a complete crap shoot (*except* for Mavic UST) and the same for gravel. I know all the tricks: bead in the center channel, put the tire in the dryer, etc. The best "trick" I've found so far for tight tires was mentioned early in this thread: mount the tire to a "loose" non-tubeless rim with a tube for a few days to stretch it a bit. Still, such a pain.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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My best guess is the rims. I seem to remember reading somewhere stans rims are slightly oversized.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:
Kool-Stop Tire Bead Jack




https://www.youtube.com/...b_channel=LarryGrimm

if you need that, you made a bad purchase decision either with wheel or tire. everything manufactured post-ETRTO standards of last year should be easy peasy.

I’d agree. I can do all of my tubelesss tires and wheels without levers at all of I’m careful to get the tire down into the bell/channel properly. Of you can’t get the tire on, some part of the bead is still sitting up on the bead seat partially.


That said, if I’m changing the whole family of tires (with four of us racing), that bead Jack makes my life super quick and easy. I love it.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:

I’d agree.


I agree, except jhammond's Iron Cross (older design of wheel) is absolutely the hardest wheel I've come across to mount tubeless tires to. And the bead jack - though a useful tool - I don't find particularly helpful in this one instance. For the exact issue the OP mentions in having the opposite end of the bead slip when you try to brute-force one end over. And with the bead jack, I find it hard to mind both ends simultaneously. Maybe some are good at one-handed jacking. I'm not so good at it.

I just the center-channel method and carefully work it around until you're down to that last 3-5 inches where it gets really hard. Then I keep one end locked in place with a thumb and start gently "persuading" the other end carefully with a good tire lever. Don't get too greedy and try to brute force that whole section at once. Just work at the ends.
Last edited by: trail: Oct 11, 20 17:19
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
iamuwere wrote:

I’d agree.


I agree, except jhammond's Iron Cross (older design of wheel) is absolutely the hardest wheel I've come across to mount tubeless tires to.

I didn't know this. Maybe it's time for a new set of hoops
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
Kool-Stop Tire Bead Jack




https://www.youtube.com/...b_channel=LarryGrimm

Thanks for the suggestion. I've never seen this before but I just ordered one and will give it a go!
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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I stopped to help a lady with a flat tyre, on a tubeless wheel, last week. She was not able to get the tyre off to put a tube in. I broke my plastic tyre lever trying and failing to get the tyre off. She had to call a friend to come and pick her up.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Ironnerd] [ In reply to ]
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I had a Pro One last week that I tried to get off for two hours....took to LBS....they had to cut it off. I have 100% switched to tubeless, but I definitely struggle getting tires on and off.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

if you need that, you made a bad purchase decision either with wheel or tire. everything manufactured post-ETRTO standards of last year should be easy peasy.

Does ETRTO say anything about the depth of the center channel? The channel is far deeper on my Enve wheels than Knight wheels. Even with the same wheel diameter and same tires, the depth will make mounting one wheel easier than another
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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i'll second that, older Iron Cross incredibly difficult in some cases.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:
Kool-Stop Tire Bead Jack




https://www.youtube.com/...b_channel=LarryGrimm


if you need that, you made a bad purchase decision either with wheel or tire. everything manufactured post-ETRTO standards of last year should be easy peasy.


Post last year's standard would mean you need wheels from this year (that has been made to the standard)?

Anyway, try mounting a new Schwalbe Pro One TT 25mm on a Roval 321. Hours of fun! I would consider both tyre and wheel pretty new/modern - would be crazy for people to switch either out based on them being "old". Can you even get a disc wheel made to latest ETRTO standards?

Fastest and lightest tyre is now a non-tubeless clincher tyre anyway ;)
Last edited by: MTM: Oct 12, 20 0:55
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Do these "new" standards really make it easier? Not trying to stir things up, but I really like looser tire and rim combinations. As a person with really only one good hand I can put tubes and tires on my aluminum RL and RXL rims easily. I can even put tires on my aluminum rims on my Synapse. Try to put tires on my carbon rims are a chore I can only complete at home with lots of time and the bead jack. I know if I flat with those, its a phone call, no way of getting the tire off.

That is the main reason I will stick with a rim brake bike and aluminum rims for as long as possible. Easy to take off the wheel and reposition it. I find with my discs on my Synapse I have try to reinstall the wheels at least twice to not get the brake to rub. I know I live in a different situation, but no way I am going tubeless until I can get tires on a rim with one hand.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [StephanP] [ In reply to ]
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StephanP wrote:
Do these "new" standards really make it easier? Not trying to stir things up, but I really like looser tire and rim combinations. As a person with really only one good hand I can put tubes and tires on my aluminum RL and RXL rims easily. I can even put tires on my aluminum rims on my Synapse. Try to put tires on my carbon rims are a chore I can only complete at home with lots of time and the bead jack. I know if I flat with those, its a phone call, no way of getting the tire off.

That is the main reason I will stick with a rim brake bike and aluminum rims for as long as possible. Easy to take off the wheel and reposition it. I find with my discs on my Synapse I have try to reinstall the wheels at least twice to not get the brake to rub. I know I live in a different situation, but no way I am going tubeless until I can get tires on a rim with one hand.

the value in the new standards is that the tires fit on the rims much more easily. i have one of those walnut cracker tools, and it's just absurd. the new rim standards (ETRTO only makes rim standards) now allows tire companies to make the tires with confidence, rather than erring on the side of a millimeter or so too small.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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MTM wrote:
Post last year's standard would mean you need wheels from this year (that has been made to the standard)?

Anyway, try mounting a new Schwalbe Pro One TT 25mm on a Roval 321. Hours of fun! I would consider both tyre and wheel pretty new/modern - would be crazy for people to switch either out based on them being "old". Can you even get a disc wheel made to latest ETRTO standards?

Fastest and lightest tyre is now a non-tubeless clincher tyre anyway ;)

after awhile you get a sense of who are the outliers. i've got a lot of wheels and tires in my workshop, and the new (the 2019 launch) schwalbes are easy to mount. so, if you're having trouble, it's the wheel, in my opinion.

mind, not all wheel companies came out immediately with new wheels once the standards were announced. before the new wheel standards, both wheel and tire companies fudged. at least, this was my guess. there were tires i just threw away, because even tho i liked them, i couldn't mount them.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The Schwalbe Pro One TT was launched this year so should be the new standard. The Roval 321 is definitely generally a bear to mount tyres on, but I don't find the Schwalbe any easier than say a Corsa Speed. Maybe the new standard primarily made the wheels smaller so we don't see a real effect before one's wheels are replaced?

FWIW I tried tubeless this year but didn't really see any benefit vs. just using latex in speed, comfort or number of flats (I generally don't flat much as long as I don't wear tyres down to the chords). It did definitely get me some nice blisters on my hands, though (and still do since basically all rims are now tubeless-ready).
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
I agree, except jhammond's Iron Cross (older design of wheel) is absolutely the hardest wheel I've come across to mount tubeless tires to.

Same experience here, but I really like them and Crests for CX because of that. If you can get one of those really tough tire combos mounted, you will never have to worry about a tire burp. Tubular pressures all day without issues and wheels you can use year round. I have a spray bottle of highly concentrated water and dish soap for mounting tubeless tires. A handful of sprays around the rim bed and all over the tire really seem to help mounting difficult tire combinations. The tire bead jack mentioned here makes things easier, but I don't think it will make a combo work that wouldn't work with thumbs and pressure.
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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MTM wrote:
The Schwalbe Pro One TT was launched this year so should be the new standard. The Roval 321 is definitely generally a bear to mount tyres on, but I don't find the Schwalbe any easier than say a Corsa Speed. Maybe the new standard primarily made the wheels smaller so we don't see a real effect before one's wheels are replaced?

FWIW I tried tubeless this year but didn't really see any benefit vs. just using latex in speed, comfort or number of flats (I generally don't flat much as long as I don't wear tyres down to the chords). It did definitely get me some nice blisters on my hands, though (and still do since basically all rims are now tubeless-ready).

think about what you're writing here, against the backdrop of recent history. probably a year ago - and certainly 2 years ago - the triluminatti and other self-proclaimed experts said that tubeless is not applicable to anything below CX sized tires (at the smallest), because pressures were too high, and the value of tubeless was lost on skinny-tired bikes.

what you're saying here is that it is now a wash with tubed tires, if those tires have latex tubes.

consider the typical reader here. you don't face what they face. who are you? 1 of the 10 fastest timed racers in the world. okay. i'll give you that ;-)

but the typical reader here has 2 imperatives that you don't face: absolutely positively cannot flat; and latex tubes are a non-starter for the great majority of triathletes, because of cost, and because of daily leakdown.

we're now in what i might call phase 3 of road tubeless. phase 1 was, here is the tech. hutchinson, 25 years ago. phase 2 was, the tech was rideable, usable, and actually pretty fast, but the utility was janky because of uneven manufacturing, no standards and such. in phase 3 we have standards, speed is on par with the best tubulars and the best clinchers w/latex.

phase 4 is where bike/wheel makers actually make their products user-ready. giant (cadex) is the first to that goal, with wheels. zipp, reserve (cervelo), enve and others fast catching up. no leakdown. easy mounting. no questions about what sealant goes in which tires.

we're a year away, maybe 2 years, from clear superiority for road tubeless. that superiority can be gotten today. but in my opinion you'd then be restricted to recently engineered wheels. for example, as of a couple of months ago our readers can actually ride the tubeless-specific zipps that kienle, frodeno, brownlee had been riding for the past year and a half.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: I'm so sick of tubeless tires [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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Did you get your tire mounted?

Here's a tip for getting the second bead on as I assume you're able to get the first bead on okay. Hold the wheel in your lap with the second bead up and the valve away from you. Now use both hands to start getting the second bead on OPPOSITE the valve. Now work the bead on with one hand going each away around towards the bead. Keep doing that until it gets tight and starts giving you trouble. Now switch to using two hands(thumbs) together to work each side a little at a time. You should finish the last part of the bead right at the valve. If it gets too tight to finish, squeeze the two beads together back near your starting point(opposite the valve) to make sure both beads are down in the deepest center channel of the rim. That should give you a little extra "slack" to now get the last part of the bead on.
I hope that helps.
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