Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent)
Quote | Reply
My swim progress has stuck for the past few years while seeing many people (not former competitive swimmers), both in real life and on this forum, getting their swim times down to e.g. 25 minutes for 1.5 km or 32 minutes for 1.9 km in their triathlon swim legs or below just a year or even months of getting into swimming. However, I'm now still at a firm 31 - 32 minutes for 1.5 km OW (my best effort was just under 31 in an extremely calm bay and drafted most of the way but it killed my run leg afterwards) despite after 2 years of serious swim training (swimming 4 - 5 times a week except in the off season about 2 months per year), and another few years of swimming at the so-called "typical AG level" (about 2 - 3 times a week without much structure) before that, with minimal improvement.

I have basically done everything I can think of and afford:
  • watching videos
  • doing drills in the pool
  • doing a beginner course
  • doing intervals in the pool
  • do long swims in open water
  • getting into a squad and train there 2x week (in addition to my OW swim weekend and another session in the pool doing intervals or drills)
  • getting 1-1 video lesson

The people I know who swim much faster than me are mostly those who are nearly double my age and started in their adulthood. If they can swim 1:25 or less 5K after a few years of training I can't think of a possible reason unless I am dumb.

On Slowtwitch training methodology is hotly debated - some think that technique is everything and it won't help if you are thrashing for 15 km / week and some think that just put in 15 km a week for a few months and you will get improvement because most AGers only swim maybe 2 - 3 times per week for about 7 km.

Let me conclude what I did in short for my previous few seasons:
  • 2014 - 2015 winter: wanted to join a group of OW swimmers in the city, but couldn't catch up, then looked into the university I was studying in but their beginner programme did not operate in the winter (they have a triathlon swim squad but I couldn't meet the 2:20 / 100 m interval entry requirement). I just swam occasionally on my own.
  • 2015 summer: the beginner programme moved away from the university and I was busy doing summer internship, so didn't swim much that year, and occasionally afterwards.
  • 2016 summer: I tried again in April but still not up to squad standard. I then did a beginner course (designed for people who can swim 100 m but don't have training experience and / or can't sustain longer distance). Some got to the standard by the end of the course but not me. I was still not to the squad standard. In the same season I did my first aquathon (500 m swim and 4 km run, 0:14:01 + 0:0:46 + 0:20:41), and my first OW swimming race (claimed to be 1.5 km and I took 0:50:12 - however the course was likely to be much longer because the geometry was wrong, someone thought it was nearly 2 km and the winning time was 0:28:45)
  • 2016 - 2017 winter: I started my first job after graduation. I intended to join the squad at the university but I still couldn't get to the standard. At that season I was on 3' interval returning 2'10" for 10 x 100 m. As a result I only swam for about 2 times per week on my own without much structure. Also the commute was hell and my health deteriorated over the year and I quit the job 1 year afterwards (autumn 2017) to have a complete rest.
  • 2018 summer: I decided to get some structured training done despite I still couldn't join the squad. I started in April getting to the pool about 3 times per week, mainly 100 m intervals, on some days 400 m or 1500 m continuous swims. In summer I believed that I could catch up the group of OW swimmers mentioned on the top and I returned. In autumn I finally reached the squad standard. I also started to have an idea of doing a working holiday in 2021 so I arranged a contract job, for 1 year renewable at maturity, starting at October 2018 at the university so I could join the squad and also use the pool there for free. I joined the squad since the same moment. I started timing my 1500 in the pool and started at 35 minutes in May, and ended at 32 minutes by October I started joining the squad.
  • 2018 - 2019 winter: I was doing progressively longer swims in the season. I signed up for my first 3.7 km race in November, and my first nearly 5 km race in April. Also I made myself a goal to complete my first marathon swimming before March 2020. I did a video lesson and some 1-1 in that season, but my 1500 pool time plateaued at 31 minutes.
  • 2019 summer: I got no improvement in speed that season despite swimming on average 13.5 km / week and also 1-1 lessons for the first half of 2019, however I completed a 12.5 km swim as my first marathon swim, while in the previous year my longest was only 3 km.
  • 2019 - 2020 winter: I finally found a total immersion coach (Chung Ho) in my city, took a lesson, he taught me to do the 2-beat kick which brought me immediate improvement. In November to January I put in even more training to about 17 km / week in order to prepare for my next A race - a 14 km marathon swimming race in January. My 1500 pool time dropped to 29 minutes by December, down from 31 minutes from September. I thought I could have finally have a breakthrough. I saw hope at that time, planning to have further lesson from the total immersion coach from February onward because he brought me magic. I signed up for a 21 km OW race in 2020 summer.
  • 2020 summer: We all know what happened. The world was shut by mid-March while the pools in my area were shut most of the time since February. I initially kept swimming open water for about 13 km / week in February to April but when racing in August was no longer a possibility, I lost all motivation and stopped training almost completely, with only 1 swim with my friends per week in August. I originally wanted to use that off-season for pure technique drills, but the pandemic situation shut the pools in July again. Also the TI coach Chung Ho was not teaching this season so I couldn't have any lessons. I tried a few other coaches but none gave me improvement like him. The progress I made last year was completely lost by September when the pool reopened when I wanted to start again.

I'm so tired seeing little progress over years and the hope I saw last winter did not realise as well. I really want to give up but I have some challenges and races booked before COVID which will happen next year and can't be postponed, and I am still at a better position compared to other challengers.

I have left my job at contract maturity. I didn't renew it because I will emigrate half a year later (April 2021) and I won't get a new job in between. So I am now giving myself one last chance in swimming in this half a year without the constraint of a 9-6 job and put in some really serious effort in it, at least 4 - 5 times of swimming a week, starting from 15 km / week and maybe up to 25 or even 30 by the end of the season with a variety of sessions, and have lessons with my local TI coach running a triathlon club in my city who has just resumed teaching in October. I hope I can really take off in this season. If not I will admit I am dumb in swimming and give up in 2021 after the challenges I have booked already.

TL;DR - I have little progress in swimming in the past years and giving myself a last chance to improve in the coming half a year.

Question: How much does talent matter in swimming for AOS? Am I clearly lacking it? Also, I currently don't bike and last year I ran my fastest standalone half marathon at 1:42, does it matter in terms of fitness?
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Total guess

Your goal is to swim a faster 1.5k but you seem to train to do insanely long swims


How often in your swim training do you swim so hard it feels like you are near passing out from lack of oxygen? Or relatively close

I made my best gains when I stopped doing so much longer swimming and did more 100 - 50 Amd 25 repeats where it felt like my lungs were going to burst

USRPT work
Last edited by: MrTri123: Nov 12, 20 5:38
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think you have to plan your routine for fast swimming rather than long swimming.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is only my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

I've been swimming with a masters team since 2015. 4-5 days a week. Put in 10k+ yards. The best I could ever get to was pushing off the wall on 1:30. That's not bad, but it's not putting me FOP in an iroman. Do I have the talent/engine. I think so. I can go sub hour on an olympic in the bike and then run a 36-38 min 10k. I've been first on the bike and run in the 40-44 age group in an Ironman branded 70.3. But at the same time, my daughter is 12 years old and can swim circles around me. Oh and she swims 2x a week and just did 29 sec for a 50 and 1:09 for a 100.

With all that said, going down this same rabbit hole, because I've been frustrated for so many years. I think it all comes down to flexibility. My daughter's coach is my coach. He gives us the same workout, same drills (just at different times). When I watch the kids, they have that shoulder flexibility that us adults lose as we get older. I've just come to accept that I'm never going to get it. Doesn't mean I don't still enjoy pushing myself in the pool. With enough swimming, I can come out the swim, not too far back, and feeling fresh. It's at that point where I make my move. It's kinda fun actually. I did an Olympic back in September, gave a buddy of mine (recent Kona qualifier) a 2.5 min lead out of the water. Out biked him and ran him down at the finish line.

So, maybe add in some shoulder stretching. Maybe you can get back some of that flexibility. Good luck!
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Screw swimming, stick to running and cycling. Duathlon would love to have you.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Looks like you've had several coaches. One thing you don't mention is their opinion on why you are not progressing. Have they said you need to improve your flexibility? Your strength? Your technique? What did the video analysis coach say?

For me, I know I can still improve my flexibility and technique, but it's my strength that is holding me back the most.

Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I totally understand why would you expect bigger improvements. Your splits are definitely below average with all the training context you mention. At this level there are surely many things you could do better and as usual there is more than one way to skin a cat. What would help us to give you a solid advice is presenting your best times on different distances - ie how fast can you go for 50 meters, 200 meters and 1500 meters. It is different story if you can swim 75'' for 100 meters and 32' for 1500 meters comparing to 100'' all out 100 meters and 32' 1500 meters...

That being said I would never recommend going "long slow distance" when you are around 32' for 1500 meters. Quality of movement first, but it does not necessary mean swimming very little or focusing on drills ;)

Finding a good hands-on coach to simple give you direction is a great idea. And yes, there is a massive difference between bad and good coaching ;) So do not get a coach, get a good coach.

Regards your question: generally speaking, zero talent is needed to swim 25' for 1500m, but there is probably 1-2% of people that are "antitalented".

coaching via trinergy.pl
TP Training Plans
IG @kowalski.coach
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I will respond in detail later, but what is your height, weight and 5km running pb. I am tryiing to asses if you are purely limited by technique or engine also. The bigger your engine the better technique you can achieve. It's not just technique without an engine. If I had the engine inside Lucy Charles, my swimminng would be more than proportionally better than what it is....in the same vein, with the engine inside Lionel sanders, he is very much technique limited not engine limited.

For example, my engine does not allow me to do 5-7 hard dolphin kicks off the wall like Phelps. If I do 3-4 its a good day. I am just engine limited so I cannot even apply enough force properly at the end of an interval (let's say at the end of a 50 fly, I cannot apply enough good force in the right way as I can do early and if I do a 100 or 200 there is not enough speed carrying me through to the next stroke and breath, so its really pronounced that the bigger the engine the better the technique that is possible).
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 


I'm now still at a firm 31 - 32 minutes for 1.5 km OW (my best effort was just under 31 in an extremely calm bay and drafted most of the way but it killed my run leg afterwards).


I finally found a total immersion coach (Chung Ho) in my city, took a lesson, he taught me to do the 2-beat kick which brought me immediate improvement

Reading through, perhaps I missed something. If you are doing a two beat kick, your legs should not get trashed in a 1500m swim.

For anyone to give you reasonable suggestions, you might want to consider timing yourself at 50,100m and at 400m (25m pool swim), because anyone who knows swimming can give you a lot of response based on those times. Add to that your 50,100m kick time and 50, 100m (and 400m) pull time (using a buoy and not Sim suit). Again because those times will give an indication of relative strengths.

Good luck (a video wouldn't hurt)
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I’m curious what your physique is, in terms of weight and body fat. I struggle with this too, but I’m also over 6’ tall, and under 150 pounds. Basically a string bean with very low body fat. My struggle has been buoyancy and body position. I swim like a submarine below the surface. My average training pace is 1:45/ 100, I can get down to 1:39/ 100 in an all out interval on a good day. But in a wetsuit legal race, I’ve done as well as a 1:28/ 100 easily. But I love swimming too much to give it up, and have come to terms with the fact that I’ll always be pretty much just average.

Athlinks / Strava
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
get a pull buoy and some paddles and keep your intervals short. e.g. 40*50m with 10 seconds rest, at 1.5km pace.
This will stop your technique breaking down, and build your strength and fitness.

And variations of that. IMHO as an adult onset swimmer too many 'solutions' out there are to finesse your technique, which practically is never going to happen and a waste of time. You need a solid basic technique and then swim appropriate strength and fitness (to keep what technique you have under fatigue.) I went from 39mins (or thereabouts) for my first half IM swim to sub 1hour for IMs. The longest interval I swam in training was 400m, apart from one build week.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [tomekbielany] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tomekbielany wrote:
generally speaking, zero talent is needed to swim 25' for 1500m.

I feel personally attacked lol
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A great thread! It's taken me 18 years to get from a 1:32 Ironman swim to a 1:10. Like you, I have darn near "done it all" : 1 on 1, masters, Total Immersion, intervals of all distances, ultra distance.

We both have been getting a poor return on our investment - for sure. If we both measure that return based on NEVER BEING ABLE TO SWIM A SUB 30 FOR AN OLYMPIC.... and other sorts of times and distances.

But, as long as we can make it out of the water and kick the assess of some "talented swimmers of ALL ages" on the bike and run, I think we can experience a lot of satisfaction. Well, that's what has been sustaining me for my 31 years in the sport.

In addition to this, I really enjoy the process! I swim in lakes, a lot, like 70 times a year, and to get out there in a wetsuit and have fun and experience nature is one of the things I enjoy about being a triathlete.

The drudgery of the swimming pool - I enjoy less. I do masters mostly for social reasons (= post w/out beers). And when I don't swim with the masters, I do a lot of swimming (maybe 60%) with swim toys like: snorkels, fins, pull buoys, kick boards, and paddles, and neoprene swim shorts (!). This makes things fun and motivating. Results be damned!

http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
michael Hatch wrote:



I'm now still at a firm 31 - 32 minutes for 1.5 km OW (my best effort was just under 31 in an extremely calm bay and drafted most of the way but it killed my run leg afterwards).


I finally found a total immersion coach (Chung Ho) in my city, took a lesson, he taught me to do the 2-beat kick which brought me immediate improvement

Reading through, perhaps I missed something. If you are doing a two beat kick, your legs should not get trashed in a 1500m swim.

For anyone to give you reasonable suggestions, you might want to consider timing yourself at 50,100m and at 400m (25m pool swim), because anyone who knows swimming can give you a lot of response based on those times. Add to that your 50,100m kick time and 50, 100m (and 400m) pull time (using a buoy and not Sim suit). Again because those times will give an indication of relative strengths.

Good luck (a video wouldn't hurt)


The aquathon where I trashed my legs was before I started total immersion. I still haven't got a chance to race aquathon after I started total immersion yet.

My fastest all out 50, 100, 200 or 400 pool times (all in 50 m pool) last year were 46", 1'36", 3'31" and 7'9" last year. This year I tried a lesson from a certain national team triathlete and pushed my 100 to 1'30" and 50 to 40". What he taught was to increase my kick, spin my arms crazily, and keep my body flat - as anti TI as possible. That was clearly unsustainable and I didn't continue with him.
Last edited by: miklcct: Nov 12, 20 12:53
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hopefully someone can give you some good advice from that information.

One of the reasons I mentioned the kick and pull times, is because for some the secret to going faster is in their kick. Their kick times would reflect that and for others the secret is in their pull and their pull times would also show that. I am a terrible kicker so everything relies on the pull (on distance I am faster with a pull buoy). Others have supple feet and their kick is a good source of speed. Adult learners usually have lousy kicks because they have rigid ankles and just thrash about. It's good to figure out which you are. While you are at it, you might also look at stroke count on average per length, when you are at race speed. Obviously the more efficient the stroke the further you go.

1:30 is a respectable 100m time in a 50m pool, was it from a dive? If it's from a push, even better, but it also means you're showing a big drop of in speed from 50 to 100m and beyond.

Cheers
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I have a big drop off from my fastest 100 m to 200 m and 400 m. After 400 m it becomes steady. Mainly because I'm using a completely different kind of stroke when I go an all out 50 or 100 which can't be sustained for even 100 m.

Meanwhile, my newest timed 200 m is 3'26" in the training today.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
One of the things about kicking fast is that your legs and feet need good timing and remain streamlined and kind of catch the water with the shin and then throw it with the top of the foot toes. You want a a hard connection with the water vs having your quads and shins pushing against all this frothing turbulant mess. When the good kicker slows down they still keep doing this without a parachute of drag from the legs...plus they have a hard anchor for their upper body to work against. Imagine a tennis player, golfer or baseball player trying to hit a ball with their feet on a swivel or on ice with new fallen rain on top. So you want the kick to provide a strong anchor for the arms while they remain streamline and don't create a lot of drag.

For age group triathloon the flat out 100m is less imporant than whatever 100m pace we can hold on 10 seconds rest, or our 400m speed. But we won't get our 400 speed down doing 400's. We will get it down doing 100's and 50's on short rest because this way you're tired enough that you cannot muscle through, but topped up enough to try to apply the best form. The other version I like is 400's with 25m "sprints" and 25m cruise with the best possible streamline for the latter. In this version you focus on propulsion for one 25 and streamline for the other, but for the hard 25 you are not 100% rested so you're already in more realistic aerobic scenario for what you would have in a tri.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Also 6 months is not enough. Try 4 years and then come back. There is no magic to this.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't have a lot of advice on how to swim faster, but I did want to point at your swim progression. Remember that progress is hardly ever linear; huge gains usually occur at the beginning, usually followed by a plateau and then alternating plateaus and incremental improvements.

1500m times
2016: 50 mins (OW, maybe long)
2017: didn't swim much
2018, may: 35 min (pool)
2018, oct: 32 min (pool, ~10% improvement!!!!)
2019 spring: 31 min (pool, still improving!)
2019 summer: plateau
2020 spring: 29 min (pool, improving again!)
2020 summer: didn't swim

It will take some time to come back from the months out of the water. I'm been swimming since June and still not back to where I was after the 3 months off of swimming, so don't be discouraged about not being immediatly back to where you were this spring.

Over 2 years (2018 spring to 2020 spring), you've reduced your 1500m time by 6 minutes (almost 20%)! That's huge for us AO swimmers and you're likely at a point where your gains are going to be incremental steps and not huge leaps. As others have suggested, maybe it's time to try some additional speed work for a while and see what happens. Often times you just need a change in training stimulus.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you have not already check out Effortless swimming on Youtube. I'm not a quick swimmer at all but after doing the Superman drill and YMCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fep0EwmlfKA as a warm up every session I took my 1000 meter TT from 21:30 to 18:30. If you have a very poor catch like me, it is possible to make a significant improvement in a short time.

If you can get video of you swimming, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here, who I am sure can point out some very fixable flaws with your stroke.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Also 6 months is not enough. Try 4 years and then come back. There is no magic to this.

The pace I can hold on is about 1'50".

Also, there is no way I can keep on for 4 years unless I see a good possibility to get into the elite class afterwards. I just want to complete the challenges and races I've booked pre-COVID and see if I still want to continue swimming or give up completely afterwards depending on the improvement in this half a year.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't disagree with you, which is why I gave no training advice other than to suggest the OP provide more information. On reading their last post I have come to the conclusion they are unrealistic and while they are on a Triathlon page, the focus is on events unrelated to Triathlon. So I have rather lost interest.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Serious question: How many pushups can you do?

You can have the best catch in the world, but if you don't have strength, you can't pull the water. You need both.

I was in the military, and maintained good body conditioning. But my form was SO BAD. I would flounder around in the pool for a 30 minute 1500. But after four years of this, my swimming speed took off like wildfire once I joined a masters team that had a GOOD COACH on deck.

But I don't think I could have done that without the base of muscle strength I'd built up for a number of years.

If you've met people who have gotten fast quickly, I'd say it's because their bodies were primed and ready to receive proper coaching.
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Also 6 months is not enough. Try 4 years and then come back. There is no magic to this.
SO TRUE. It took me 6 months to go from 2:20 to high 1:50’s... and 4 years to get to consistent mid 1:40’s, and cracking 1:30’s in wetsuit races. It’s also taken a shit ton of weightlifting, to put some swim muscle on my skinny ass frame. Being ectomorph is great for running, ok for cycling, but crap for swimming.

Athlinks / Strava
Quote Reply
Re: I'm giving my last chance in swimming this half a year. (question on talent) [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
michael Hatch wrote:
I don't disagree with you, which is why I gave no training advice other than to suggest the OP provide more information. On reading their last post I have come to the conclusion they are unrealistic and while they are on a Triathlon page, the focus is on events unrelated to Triathlon. So I have rather lost interest.
.
If you have read any of the OP's previous threads you will see that he is trying to get himself in shape to swim the English Channel next year all the time complaining about lack of pool access and warm water temperature in training while happily throwing all of his "coaches" under the bus.He is one very high maintenance adult onset swimmer who is overthinking everything.He has received some very good advice from some great swim coaches here over the last few months but is clearly ignoring the very real possibility that the sort of improvement he is hoping for will take a long time and even then he may never be ready to swim to France.
Quote Reply

Prev Next