How to arrange cycles in swimming

Oct 18, 19 8:32

Post #1 of 23 (3433 views)

I'm ok with my cycles in cycling as I come from a cycling background and have been training, and trained for many years.
Swimming is new to me. I was thinking about starting by doing slow long distances to develop some adaptations, then work on speed, and intensity.
But as I read a few threads I'm now confused. Many people tend to start by working on speed first, then slowly develop endurance later on...?

I tried to do a 20 X 50 m workout yesterday to experiment (total 2100m workout with WU-activation-CD). That was, well, "different" !! I don't have any kind of "feeling" for high intensity. The first 6 or 7 swims went fine (between 36 and 40'') , but after I felt like I didn't feel my arms or upper body for the whole swim. My times also went up by a few seconds. And the whole upper body feels like something new is happening. Is is good ? I guess I'm fatigued. I'll find out this evening lol....

So I'd like to build some "cycles" to improve my times in swimming, I'm stuck with an "idle" speed for long swims, at 1:35+/100 m.
How do I arrange that ?
Diversity ? In the same weeks, mix some speed with endurance ?
Or specificity ? Work on one specific quality for 4-5 weeks, then shift on the next, etc.. ?

Of course I'm adding some technical work, drills, etc...
I'm definitely going to do a video analysis this fall to get a better picture of my technical skills to focus on...

Louis :-)

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 18, 19 8:40

Post #2 of 23 (3426 views)

I simply like to do sets like 20 x 100 or 10 x 200 with about 15 seconds rest.

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 18, 19 9:04

Post #3 of 23 (3397 views)

There are entire books written on this, hard to give a full answer in just one post.

however, you're fast enough and have enough base (it seems) that I would approach it kinda like a "real swimmer"(tm) does.

early season is more about building volume, aerobic base, and a good amount of technique work. then reduce the technique and do more building (classic build phase). After that, you'll start reducing volume a bit and getting into a lot more event specific work before heading into taper.

That said, you wanna be having sets or sessions focused on technique, aerobic, VO2 max, and sprinting ability throughout the year. its the mix that changes.

More specific to what you were talking about:

20x50 isn't a high intensity sprint set., especially not if you were doing them on 15s rest or thereabouts which is what I'm guessing. If your threshold pace is 1:35, then hitting them at 36's to 40's is way too hard and you are gonna blow up. Congratulations, you learned about pacing yesterday.

If you really want to work on speed, then do that same set of 20x50 on 1:00 (or whatever your interval was), but do 3 easy, 1 fast, or descend 1-4. or build through each 50 to a sprint. or some combination of these (eg 5 x (4 x 50 - #1 easy, #2 fast for 15m, then easy, #3 build, #4 fast)

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Oct 18, 19 9:16

Post #4 of 23 (3387 views)

Thanks Jason,
I'd be glad to put my hands on a few good books on swim training if you care to share.

louis :-)

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 18, 19 9:25

Post #5 of 23 (3374 views)

Start with "Swimming Fastest" - Ernest Maglischo - this is the bible. the torah.

https://www.amazon.com/...571415579&sr=8-1

There are lots of other good ones, I find Sheila Taormina's books good. She has 3 or 4 out (I believe). They're easy to understand and good for technique. It's been a while since I looked at them, but I don't think there's a lot of info on how to design sets or structure a season. I could be wrong though.

I would also read Rushall's stuff on USRPT, whether your decide to follow USRPT or not, there's some really good information in his papers. do a google search, you'll be able to find them for free online.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Oct 18, 19 12:02

Post #6 of 23 (3300 views)

To add to the book collection and one that I think is even better than Maglischo would be:

Championship Swim Training by Bill Sweetenham & John Atkinson

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Oct 18, 19 13:39

Post #7 of 23 (3226 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

20x50 isn't a high intensity sprint set., especially not if you were doing them on 15s rest or thereabouts which is what I'm guessing. If your threshold pace is 1:35, then hitting them at 36's to 40's is way too hard and you are gonna blow up. Congratulations, you learned about pacing yesterday.

If you really want to work on speed, then do that same set of 20x50 on 1:00 (or whatever your interval was), but do 3 easy, 1 fast, or descend 1-4. or build through each 50 to a sprint. or some combination of these (eg 5 x (4 x 50 - #1 easy, #2 fast for 15m, then easy, #3 build, #4 fast)

.... I was doing them on 1:30 (insert shy face smiley here). Even with such rest in between I began to struggle with feel and technique after 6-7 of them. Guess my body is yet to adapt to such workouts. And interstingly enough, my last 50's with a slower arm pace weren't slower than my "fatigued" ones struggling to maintain high pace, but losing the technique ....
I'll work on some progression or variations on my workouts...

LOuis :-)

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 18, 19 21:12

Post #8 of 23 (3088 views)

instead of 20x50 break them into sets of 3, 5, 7 or whatever. Do them on your normal interval then when you get to the 5th (let's just say you're doing 4x(5x50 on 1:30)) take an extra :15 to :30 rest. That should allow you to keep it together longer through the set.

You can start with 4x(5x50 on 1:30) and as your fitness improves maybe do 7x50 on 1:30 + :15 extra rest then 3x(5x50 on 1:30).

Look, part of swimming is getting fatigued and still figuring out how to catch & pull water. You gain technique as you work on fitness and fitness if you do technique work. The goal is to figure out where your balance needs to be.

Technique work doesn't just have to be drills. Sure you can do 10x50 fist drill/swim. Or you can add fins, do some 25sprint w/ fins, do some 25 all out sprints, some from a dive. Both of the above examples build technique one will build fitness faster.

The one thing I'll say about drills is unless you have specific flaws & you know what they are, doing a drill to just do a drill isn't very helpful. It's low both on the technique development & fitness development scale. You want to choose drills that will have a high impact on your swim development.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 19 5:16

Post #9 of 23 (2984 views)

I ordered both books,thanks guys ( and Amazon "used" :-) ).

Louis :-)

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 19 8:52

Post #10 of 23 (2922 views)

I just picked up a tower26 sub. its 75 per month. Gerry Rodriguez claims that if you are with him for 2 years you will have learned enough from the training and supplementary education that comes with it then you'd be able to train yourself very well

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 9:09

Post #11 of 23 (2784 views)

Thanks I'll have a look.
I'm trying to escape such expenses though.
For much less than that I can enter a masters club and be coached live on the spot, but it's still above my infinitely low budget...
Louis :-)

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 11:28

Post #12 of 23 (2733 views)

The correct answer to this thread = "listen to Jason"

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 19 12:14

Post #13 of 23 (2712 views)

louisn wrote:

JasoninHalifax wrote:

20x50 isn't a high intensity sprint set., especially not if you were doing them on 15s rest or thereabouts which is what I'm guessing. If your threshold pace is 1:35, then hitting them at 36's to 40's is way too hard and you are gonna blow up. Congratulations, you learned about pacing yesterday.

If you really want to work on speed, then do that same set of 20x50 on 1:00 (or whatever your interval was), but do 3 easy, 1 fast, or descend 1-4. or build through each 50 to a sprint. or some combination of these (eg 5 x (4 x 50 - #1 easy, #2 fast for 15m, then easy, #3 build, #4 fast)

.... I was doing them on 1:30 (insert shy face smiley here). Even with such rest in between I began to struggle with feel and technique after 6-7 of them. Guess my body is yet to adapt to such workouts. And interstingly enough, my last 50's with a slower arm pace weren't slower than my "fatigued" ones struggling to maintain high pace, but losing the technique ....
I'll work on some progression or variations on my workouts...

LOuis :-)

Yeah, even so, if I'm right in guessing where your flat out 50 speed is, that's still asking a lot to hold it together for that many repeats without taking a break.

As an example, on the regular monthly swim thread I posted a "practice and pancakes" video from swimswam, which featured one of the practices at Indiana U, where Blake Pieroni is swimming with the pro group (along with several other high level pro swimmers).

Blake, who is right up there with the best 100 and 200 free guys in the country, did a practice of 4 x 100 on 2:00 (his 100y free is somewhere in the 40.x range). In that practice he went (on that set) 50, 48, 48, 47 and he probably could have gone for a few more, but they called it quits at that point.

You were trying to do 20x50 on 1:30, probably holding close to the same difference off your best 50 as Blake was off his best 100, for 5 times the number of repeats on less rest between repeats. That's generally not going to work well...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 19 4:23

Post #14 of 23 (2627 views)

I probably didn't hit any expected target (speed, technique) with what I did...
As a bonus I caught a mean headcold this weekend, my second this month...never experienced that in my life. Like you wrote earlier, got to learn pacing (and progression)...I think I'm over doing it with these new sports...meeeeh

Louis :-)

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 19 14:25

Post #15 of 23 (2441 views)

HUmmm,
I bought both previously cited books on swimming...
Guys, are you serious ?
They're talking about 40 km/week microcycles as lowest volume weeks :-o !!
Up to 70+ km/week for "endurance work" !!
Heck, even "seniors's" and masters plans have more than 40 km/week.
Ok, go ahead, lie to me and tell me some triathletes do this kind of swim training volume lol ...

Louis :)

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 19 14:44

Post #16 of 23 (2432 views)

louisn wrote:

HUmmm,
I bought both previously cited books on swimming...
Guys, are you serious ?
They're talking about 40 km/week microcycles as lowest volume weeks :-o !!
Up to 70+ km/week for "endurance work" !!
Heck, even "seniors's" and masters plans have more than 40 km/week.
Ok, go ahead, lie to me and tell me some triathletes do this kind of swim training volume lol ...

Louis :)

30 km per week is only ~ a 10 hrs training week. Relatively speaking for endurance sport, its not "that much".

I did a bunch of 40km swim weeks in the past few years. It was no worse than a 500km bike week or a 160km run week...it was actually way easier than the 160km run week and marginally harder than the 500km bike week.

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 19 14:45

Post #17 of 23 (2430 views)

louisn wrote:

HUmmm,
I bought both previously cited books on swimming...
Guys, are you serious ?
They're talking about 40 km/week microcycles as lowest volume weeks :-o !!
Up to 70+ km/week for "endurance work" !!
Heck, even "seniors's" and masters plans have more than 40 km/week.
Ok, go ahead, lie to me and tell me some triathletes do this kind of swim training volume lol ...

Louis :)

Well, you did want to know what swimmers do ;-)

Seriously, just adjust the volumes down as necessary, but the basic structure should be somewhat similar.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 19 14:48

Post #18 of 23 (2428 views)

Yeah, I didn't think about the part where I'd have to quit biking, running AND my family and day job :-p !

LOuis :-)

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 19 14:57

Post #19 of 23 (2423 views)

louisn wrote:

Yeah, I didn't think about the part where I'd have to quit biking, running AND my family and day job :-p !

LOuis :-)

40 km swimming is barely 14 hrs week. That's 2 hrs per day. can be done before work easily....work my suffer mid afternoon though which is why I restrict morning sessions to 90 min max in any sport these days.

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 19 18:02

Post #20 of 23 (2361 views)

louisn wrote:

HUmmm,
I bought both previously cited books on swimming...
Guys, are you serious ?
They're talking about 40 km/week microcycles as lowest volume weeks :-o !!
Up to 70+ km/week for "endurance work" !!
Heck, even "seniors's" and masters plans have more than 40 km/week.
Ok, go ahead, lie to me and tell me some triathletes do this kind of swim training volume lol ...

Louis :)

Take the concepts from the book. Don't take the book literally. If you do take it literally after about 4 mo of swimming like that you'll be forever a changed swimmer for the better though. Everyone in your AG will hate your new swimming ability.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [louisn] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 19 18:28

Post #21 of 23 (2354 views)

louisn wrote:

I'm ok with my cycles in cycling as I come from a cycling background and have been training, and trained for many years.
Swimming is new to me. I was thinking about starting by doing slow long distances to develop some adaptations, then work on speed, and intensity.
But as I read a few threads I'm now confused. Many people tend to start by working on speed first, then slowly develop endurance later on...?

I tried to do a 20 X 50 m workout yesterday to experiment (total 2100m workout with WU-activation-CD). That was, well, "different" !! I don't have any kind of "feeling" for high intensity. The first 6 or 7 swims went fine (between 36 and 40'') , but after I felt like I didn't feel my arms or upper body for the whole swim. My times also went up by a few seconds. And the whole upper body feels like something new is happening. Is is good ? I guess I'm fatigued. I'll find out this evening lol....

So I'd like to build some "cycles" to improve my times in swimming, I'm stuck with an "idle" speed for long swims, at 1:35+/100 m.
How do I arrange that ?
Diversity ? In the same weeks, mix some speed with endurance ?
Or specificity ? Work on one specific quality for 4-5 weeks, then shift on the next, etc.. ?

Of course I'm adding some technical work, drills, etc...
I'm definitely going to do a video analysis this fall to get a better picture of my technical skills to focus on...

Louis :-)

You are new to swimming and your long distance speed is 1:35/100 = 30 min HIM

I give up

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 19 3:54

Post #22 of 23 (2292 views)

Don't quit yet ;-), I'm "new" as an adult swimmer, but I used to swim in a club from age 7 to 12. That was 40 years ago. So I guess I have some kind of swimming "memory" somewhere in me.
Long distance for me is 400 m and +, and I never swam outside of a pool.
So I'm really far from this speed on OW 1,9 km's.

Louis :-)

Re: How to arrange cycles in swimming [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 19 14:03

Post #23 of 23 (2228 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

louisn wrote:

Yeah, I didn't think about the part where I'd have to quit biking, running AND my family and day job :-p !

LOuis :-)

40 km swimming is barely 14 hrs week. That's 2 hrs per day. can be done before work easily....work my suffer mid afternoon though which is why I restrict morning sessions to 90 min max in any sport these days.

You have more freedom than me.
With my teaching job (precise schedules), 4 "old" kids and limited pool sessions availability, "in a perfect world" I can swim 5 hours/week if I want to keep minimum fitness in cycling, and still focus on improving running a little. I never ever trained for more than 15 or 16 hours in a week and that was in the summer. Maybe when I'm retired, or when the kids are all independant.

I finally found something yesterday for my needs though: Enter the local triathlon club. Fees were ridiculously cheap, pool is right next to home ( 4 min. drive), there's a coach, and they have a 90 min, session on sunday mornings.

LOuis :-)

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