Tom,

If I was to buy a bike from the shop, I would expect to get the fit for nothing. If I was to travel from my home (Australia) to your shop to get it done, I would also expect it for nothing :) As for my LBS, if they had your skills, I would think that $50 would be cheap, $75 about right and anything above $100 probably too steep...

Guys out here talkin' $350......

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

That is kind of hard to say because of the views that you have expressed on this forum at other times about this. If I bought a bike from you it probably should be included as a good sales tool. The price would have to offer what? A hour long on a bike I brought in and you tell me it doesn't fit so I spend x to fix it? You spend x amount of time measuring me and set me up on a bike? Using a computrainer to prove to me my power or what I am feeling in this position is showing good power and watts? Some sort of proof that the position is the right one. It might be such a different feel for someone after a bad position that it would be a lot of trust towards the fitter to tell me that this new position is better even though it doesn't "feel" right? Fro my money what would I get.

I own a service business just like you and I would want people to know what they get for the price as opposed to the fit my locally non-FIST LBS would do for me or what a on line service would do for me. I'll pay what ever you say as long as its fair market value. Good service is worth something and a fitter needs to eat.

I guess 55 a hour seems fair as long as its a good hour of just the fitter and me working and talking about my position. It would be tough for a lot of nike shop owners because they are usually busy. Can you justify 55 a hour but it takes 2 hours and you only spent 30min of that with the client because other things keep pulling you away to attend to?

It is such a fine line to charge for a service because people are so materially objective and your selling something that is not?! I totally agree that a fitter should get something for their time, what that is, I'm not sure.

tom. not to be crass about it - but how long does it take ?? in all honesty some of the prices i hear bandied about are IMHO completely whack. why in the world people pay more to their bicycle fitter per hour of service than they do their doctor or trial attorney is beyond me. i answer your qustion with another question. how long does it take, and how does the significance and training compare to that of other crafts people or professionals ?

What would you get for 350?

$150.. maybe $200 if you provide me with all sorts of fancy paper work specing the new setup. Plus some some wattage vs heart-rate testing to somewhat verify that the new fit is indeed better.

mike

Well I am obviously way out of touch then...I'll just have to stick to reading slowtwitch and backing my own judgement...so when is the FIST Down Under Tour scheduled?

Do you get a lifetime fit for that? As we have talked before about ever changing body,as to, flexability and strength and weightloss?

This out to be a interesting topic--very Hot!!

I know Cobb charges $400, but his assistants only charge $200. I hate to post this because I want to get fitted by you soon, but I think $200 is a fair price.

Don't forget, you are charging a for a valuable service. You have spent a lot of money going to fit classes and researching the subject. When I go to my dentist for a cleaning, it's $100 and I'm out of there in 45 minutes. My lawyer is $125 per hour, and my accountant is $150.

BUT...and this is a big but. I want your undivided attention. I got a "fitting" from a guy at my LBS a few years ago. It was a joke. He was on the phone more time than he was helping me. He didn't charge for the service, and I can definitely say I got what I paid for.

Don't forget, people will pay for this service.

Jeff

Around $70 canadian,. assuming they were good.

There is a guy here who wants $200-600 cdn for a fit, i think hes crazy.

Triscience here in kingston is charging $85 CDN for a power based fit, backed by a long physiological analysis.

Most bike shops i know around here charge about $40-50 CDN.

I wouldnt pay over 100 to get fit, at the absolute most, even assuming they were amazing fitters. From what i have been told endurosport is charging $70 CDN, and i am going to make the trip now that they are going to be fist certified!!!


-Kevin

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

I don't think it's that simple... If it was ONLY a GOOD bike fit by an expert tri-fitting specialists, I wouldn't mind spending less than 100 dollars. Unfortunately, If I end up buying about 200-300 dollars worth of bike equipment or if I have to spend 300 dollars on travel expenses, I might tend to be more willing to pay less. In addition, if I want the BEST fit, I would be willing to pay more. How much more? ...that depends.

IMHO, Bike fits are not a single event type service. The best fits are really done over time. It is trial and error that makes the difference between the BEST fit and a GOOD fit. The purpose of an initial fit is only just that - a starting point. It's the fitters job to use his experience to accommodate those things that are not correct based on the riders experiences. Basicly, pricing is a by-product of time. Long term success is determined by what is gained to improve the bikers confort and/or speed - not price.

As for myself, bike fitting is similar to pricing of other professional services, what I am willing to pay is dependent on many factors. Those factors are basicly dependent on necessity and return. What you should charge is dependent upon what level of service you are willing or able to provide - GOOD fits or BEST fits. The best pricing system should be based on a sliding scale. The sliding scale would accommodate the various needs and situations of different bikers.

Think about it? They moved your seat down 1/4 in. and you get a bill for $250. You improved your times by 2 secs. for a 20K distance. Who feels cheated. By the same token, you spend 2 hrs. making radical changes on a bike going from a roadie position to a TT position. You improved his time by 5 min. for a 20K distance. Now, you get a bill for $250. Notice the difference... pricing is basiclly a fairness issue - Fairness to both the user and the provider. Sliding scale accommodates this pricing problem.

FWIW Joe Moya

Tom,

If buying a bike from your shop, I would expect a very minimal cost if any at all. On the other hand, if I were coming to you for just the fit, I would expect to pay $250+, depending on whether you went to the extent to check wattage and heart rate along with position as determined by the measurements. Time spent on this process would also have to be a variable. Hope this helps.

Chris Dove

- If I'm buying a new bike from you, I expect a 1 hr. fitting for free. I am not willing to pay more simply because you have a sign on the front door that says "FIST certified".

- If I am getting an scheduled appointment with your undivided attention on a bike I already have, $40-60/hr. So probably $50-100 total.

- If I hear great things about your skill fitting people I know, and I am at a plateau or having problems with my current fit, I'd be inclined to pay up to $100 or so. Perhaps your being a "FIST certified" person would help you develop the solid reputation that would lead more people to go to your shop. But I don't think it's a good thing to view that certification as a revenue tool.

- To be honest, I would prefer to have my coach periodically helping me to adjust my position. Who better should know how to tweak this, taking into account my flexibility, fitness, races I'm doing, etc. That said, I have paid around $50 each at a couple of shops to see if I could improve my position. Other than small aerobar height adjustments, they didn't have anything to change. So I think I'm doing alright modifying things slightly myself. Fit is VERY important, but once you are dialed in, there's isn't a whole lot to it. I think it's a great thing that Dan is doing that Fit clinic, because it usually is the weakest link at most shops.

Cheers,

Daniel.

That's exactly along the lines of what I was thinking. It has to be an ongoing process. I'd pay $350 if it included some kind of service, say:

- one time extensive fit with some baseline Computrainer testing
- monthly or bimonthly minor tweaking
- thorough fit rexamination at 6 months or 1 year and comparison to Computrainer baseline

This would be great to include as part of an overall coaching package since I imagine a lot of coaches also do some fitting.

High standard bike shop US$150 - 200

Pro fitter US$400 max

there are VERY few fitters i would put in the Pro category.

thought...

You would not believe the cash i have wasted buying stuff to play with bike fit. still not got there yet.

Well, I'm not sure we should be using the board to help retailers set the going rate for fittings, but here goes...

If I show up at your door with a bike I have assembled from a box, without any fitting done, I'd spend 150 as the absolute top end. For that, I expect undivided attention and some analysis on the computrainer re: power output and position. This is what Bicycle Sports charges and I think it is probably pretty fair. Cobb et al know how to fit, and have been to the wind tunnel, so I think they probably have a pretty good idea of what works with regard to fit an aerodynamics. I think going over what the de facto guru of the industry charges is outrageous, no matter what kind of sign you put on your door.

If I show up with a roughed out position that needs some tweaking, I think 50 dollars an hour is probably fair.

I think $350 a fitting is insane. Doctors don't get paid like that, and they go to school a whole lot longer and take a much greater liability risk.

I think mr. anonymous brings up a point worthy of debate: is FIST a marketing tool for shops? As you put it, tom, FIST is really whay shops like yours, mission bay, etc have been doing for a long time. And all the guys who showed up at the clinic were guys who already knew how to fit well. And as I recall, you stated a few weeks ago that you would feel bad charging more than 65 bucks for a fit. Empfield disagreed, but then again, he is the guy charging for people to come to his camp.

Philbert

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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

[reply]Guys out here talkin' $350......[/reply]

I'd consider $350 to be a real "fisting" unless you spent all day with me and a FIST includes something I don't know about that a normal fit doesn't.

I recently paid $50 for a fit from a local Tri shop and I thought it was a pretty good deal. So much so in fact, I bought a few things from the shop I could have (and would have) got cheaper elsewhere.

I *might* pay $100 or $150 to someone I considered extremely qualified/certified.

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It's ALL about the bike!

Before I had ever had a fitting I would have said 150
Now that I have had one I would say 250

Personally (underline personally) I would think 350 was pushing it... then again None of my equipment is top of the line either though.

Tom,

With all due respect, do you honestly think that many people will pay nearly the same amount for a FIST fitting as they could get an hour of John Cobb's time for? Are you building a wind tunnel behind the shop or something?

Regards,

Daniel.

tom. this is a pretty interesting topic. one thing that keeps coming up is the issue of the gist of mr empfields attempts to standardize nomenclature for locating riders in space. an admirable quest! still, mr empfield's article on some of the finer points of the concept such as considering bb drop in conjunction with head tube length and the like is needed info to be out there, but isn't revolutionary. a motivated person with some graph paper, sharp pencils, frame specs and a protracter can do this from one bike to another easy enough. it has been done so by many for a very long time. IMHO this is the info that should be getting out on frame fit, and if some slick terms help that is fine.

as for fair pricing on acheiving a rider's ideal spec to begin with the market can decide, i suppose. but, consider some of the analogies between people with tremendous liability risk, years of intense school, thousands of dollars of tuition, years long on the job apprenticeships, etc. where does a weekend FIST clinic "fit" into such a model?

$350 seems a bit steep, Tom. What's the payoff if the consumer finds he/she doesn't agree over with the fit at his/her first race? Moreover, is that fee seperate from the cost of buying a new bike, or would that be fair credit towards the total purchase price. If it's a premium to be charged above and beyond the price of a new bike, then what's to stop a consumer from coming in and saying "Hi, I'd like to buy a bike but I don't want to buy your fitting." Again...it comes down to economics. $2K+ for a bike is a lot of money, regardless of how sick in the head most of us are for this sport (me included). A premium for a fitting IF a new bike is also being purchased seems absurd.

Now, if you're talking about somebody coming in to get fit on a bike they already have, I think it should be an hourly rate versus a flat fee. Somebody who only needs a half hour of tweaking shouldn't have to pay as much as somebody needing the better part of a morning. Likewise, you, the merchant, should receive just compensation for the amount of time you would be spending without selling a high mark-up item like a new bike.

I'd say that $75 would be fair as a minimum with $65 applied for every hour after the first.



Scott

I paid $50 for John Cobb to fit me personally when he was in Birmingham doing a clinic but I do realize that was a steal.

I would not pay more than a $150. My bike was only $1200.

I had two good fittings this past year: one was with John @ Bicycle Johns in Burbank--a top notch store that caters to serious cyclists & some triathletes. John spent about 1 1/2 hours with me, off and on (while I changed the parts out, adjusted cleats to his specs, he waited on customers). I ended up buying a stem from him & he only charged me $25 for his time. The difference was night & day and I walked out of his shop extremely happy & he gained a customer & a billboard very cheaply. However I did most of the wrenching & just called on his expertise and experience--he said it would have been about $50 or so if he had to do all the wrenching. This was not a scientific fit on a Serotta kit--just me on a trainer & he with his tape & weight.

The second fitting was with Tom Slocum of Hi-Sierra Cycles. This cost $250, and we spent the better part of 3 hours together. This was precise--every measurement recorded, and his fit kit is state-of-the-art: wattage, video, spin analysis. I went to him to correct some behind the knee problems I've had for years, as well as to see if we could do something about numb feet. 10% of the time was spent on actual fit (I am probably at about 95% of optimum from Bicycle John's fit 30 days earlier)--he suggested moving the saddle forward a bit to help with tri fit, but as this was on a road bike which I use for 80% of my road training, we didn't worry too much about tri fit. I did a TT wattage test & he spent 90% of the time on leg & foot position, leg rotation & efficiency, and pelvic positioning. I walked out of there spending $30.00 on a set of wedges for my cleats (which worked 100%--my feet never go numb), and $450 on new cranks as he suggested moving to 180s+ (actually he suggested 190-195s, which he manufacturers, but I wasn't that confident so I only jumped to DA 180s). I didn't feel that we accomplished as much, insofar as the changes were minor in "feel", however they have resulted in no injuries this year (first time ever), as well as a high level of comfort on the bike.

Which was a better value? Truly hard to say. John accomplished 90-95% of what I needed to make me comfortable and efficient, however Tom got me to where I can train injury free & in comfort.

If FIST can do the same for me on my tri bike, and the approach can be exact enough so that I feel confident in the system/fitter, it would probably be worth $200+--however if FIST is simply measuring things & going by Dan's book: "this looks about correct"--I'm fairly confident that another $20 with Bicycle John will get me within 5% of that anyway (as evidenced by your experience).

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"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

I thought $350 was pretty high myself. I am coming around to $150-$200 though. I've done a lot of work to learn this stuff, done a lot of fits and need a new car.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com