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How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike?
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A few older guys in my neighborhood ride P5X / P5s

How much time am I leaving on the table w my current bike vs the newer super bikes? Tried to search a bit and couldn’t find anything

I rarely race on my TT anymore (maybe 2 TTS a year?), so there’s that too... but I really want to be fast!
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
A few older guys in my neighborhood ride P5X / P5s

How much time am I leaving on the table w my current bike vs the newer super bikes? Tried to search a bit and couldn’t find anything

I rarely race on my TT anymore (maybe 2 TTS a year?), so there’s that too... but I really want to be fast!

Very little if anything. The P2 design has barely changed in 10 years. I know a few people that have gone from P2s to P5s and P5xs with very little improvements in performance.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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maybe 1min per 40k
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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1 min per 40k is quite meaningful

Are there things I can do to my p2 to close the gap?
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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handlebars, cable routing.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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you would know better than me, but id question that.

i had some of my quickest races on a p2, shes a good lil bike!
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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1min per 40km, sounds like a guess...
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [Keithh] [ In reply to ]
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well the p4 is about ~40s / 40k slower than the p5. so i'm extrapolating from that. it's an educated guess, thanks very much. i'd say it's pretty solid. do you have better input?
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Curious how you determined the P5 is faster than the P4?

Jens says his P3C is faster than his P5. I suspect that there is little difference between any of them when optimal parts are used. 1 min in a 40k is ~6% total CdA difference, or ~.014m^2 or 140cm^2. That's a lot for something that is all nice narrow airfoils. I doubt a frame alone is typically more than 300cm^2.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Jeez, you guys are all over me.

I am quoting Cervelos data from like... 2012? Jens has an optimized AF P3C I'm sure which is great for him. Doubt OP is in a similar boat with his P2 "classic."

I know it's all the rage these days to take old ass bikes that can barely brake ( a la P4 ) and spend all your time and energy making that fast but the simple fact is that the new platforms are generally faster for most people.

Here's P4 vs P2 (and others) for your perusal


Last edited by: jkhayc: Mar 25, 19 20:29
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
Jeez, you guys are all over me.

I am quoting Cervelos data from like... 2012? Jens has an optimized AF P3C I'm sure which is great for him. Doubt OP is in a similar boat with his P2 "classic."

I know it's all the rage these days to take old ass bikes that can barely brake ( a la P4 ) and spend all your time and energy making that fast but the simple fact is that the new platforms are generally faster for most people.

Here's P4 vs P2 (and others) for your perusal

Jens also saves over an inch in Q on his P3, that is impossible on the P5. The one test I did was 80 grams on neg 6mm axles on P5.

I didn’t repeat because I always ride narrow, but it gives an idea.

Like you say optimized AF.

Maurice
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, while we're on the subject how would a 2005 QR Lucero with ~2008 Zipp 808s compare to a decent modern mid range TT bike and wheels? I'd been assuming that since I had a decent position and had ticked off the basics (TT position, clean front end, internal cabling, deep rims, etc) then I wasn't giving away too much, but if a P2 is giving up 1 minute over 40k I might need to rethink!

Only got back into TT and tri fairly recently after a long hiatus, hence the old equipment. My last TT I was 12 seconds off the podium in a 20km race, so this may be fairly relevant...
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Browse away

Thank JackMott

http://aeroweenie.com
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, not sure whether to be depressed at how much speed I'm giving away or happy at the thought of how much "free" speed is out there! Assuming my kit all qualifies as entry level/low end aero, seems there are a lot of potential gains out there.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Based on the photo (not much to go on) I saw of the 2005 QR Lucero, you may be giving up a minute or more. Clean up the cable routing, and good bars and fork might be a place to start.

Unless you are testing it's tough to optimize. Have you picked all the other low hanging fruit?
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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Too bad you weren't comparing a P2K with a P3C.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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I just wondered. Lot's of people saying the P4 (with good bars) and front brake is better than the P5 at low yaw. And I don't think the P2C gives up nearly that much to the P4 with the same bars, wheels, etc. And Nick at Tririg set up a NP2 so it was quite a bit better than a P5. I believe the frame itself is a small factor (usually), compared to the other parts.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Have you picked all the other low hanging fruit?

Most of it I think. Good position with help from a fitter. Aero helmet (POC Cerebel so maybe not quite the best but works in a range of positions and I got a good deal on it). Snug fitting suit. Front end and cabling is as clean as I can get it. Hydration behind the seat, frame is clean. Zipp 808s (albeit old ones), latex tubes, Conti TT tires. Planning to pick up some aero socks/covers for TTs. Am sure there's a few watts to be saved if I went full aero weenie, but can't really justify spending big money on tunnel time or major upgrades like a new front end on such an old frame.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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i think a well appointed p4 CAN be faster than a stock p5 at certain aspects and be a better fit for the type of athlete that wants that type of bike, so to speak.

that being said, the p5 can be set up with different bars and then be faster than stock. i have no data points on whether they would then be equal. i'd take a p5 over a p4 any day of the week, personally.

just using cervelos graph the p4 is worth what looks like 100+ grams over the p3c/p2.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
A few older guys in my neighborhood ride P5X / P5s

I live in the wrong neighborhood then, that's all I know.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
I just wondered. Lot's of people saying the P4 (with good bars) and front brake is better than the P5 at low yaw. And I don't think the P2C gives up nearly that much to the P4 with the same bars, wheels, etc. And Nick at Tririg set up a NP2 so it was quite a bit better than a P5. I believe the frame itself is a small factor (usually), compared to the other parts.

Sounds like I need new bars, maybe reroute the cables (if that matters much) and I’m good w my p2

That was my hunch
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
A few older guys in my neighborhood ride P5X / P5s

How much time am I leaving on the table w my current bike vs the newer super bikes? Tried to search a bit and couldn’t find anything

I rarely race on my TT anymore (maybe 2 TTS a year?), so there’s that too... but I really want to be fast!


Life is short. If you want a new bike buy a new bike. Yes it will be faster than your P2 and don't forget about electronic shifting. It matters.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
just using cervelos graph the p4 is worth what looks like 100+ grams over the p3c/p2.

Yes... but cockpit details are important. I suspect the P2/P3 has crap, and the P4 has a Ventus. Wheels might be different too.
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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Put on a TriRig OmegaX front brake and Tririg bars and now you have your P2C probably within 20sec/40km of the P5/P5X/P3X.

Or pay Cervelo 10k for a new P3X. That would equate to time savings at a rate of $30,000 per minute . Probably also Mike Trout's rate next season!
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Re: How much slower is my 2011 p2 vs a newer bike? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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Yea if you take the time to optimize the P2 you can probably halve the differential to the P5/P3X/P5d
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