Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential?
Quote | Reply
Been doing triathlons for 3 years after coming from bodybuilding and despite training 20hr weeks and specifically 15-20k meters in the pool and haven’t noticed much improvement in my results or much in training either for that matter.

My first Ironman in Louisville (2017) I finished in 10:10. Although I held back a bit and didn’t drain the tank this past race in Whistler, I finished in 9:49.

I am 5’10 175 pounds around 9% bf so I am around 20-30lbs heavier than others my height. How much do you think this is limiting me?
I still have tweaks I can do to training like joining a masters group but wondering if holding onto this muscle is limiting me significantly.
Last edited by: BGildenstern: Aug 17, 19 15:15
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BGildenstern wrote:
Been doing triathlons for 3 years after coming from bodybuilding and despite training 20hr weeks and specifically 15-20k meters in the pool and haven’t noticed much improvement in my results or much in training either for that matter.

My first Ironman in Louisville (2017)
I finished in 10:10 and although I help back a bit and didn’t train the tank this past race in Whistler I finished in 9:49.

I am 5’10 175 pounds around 9% bf so I am around 20-30lbs heavier than others my height. How much do you think this is limiting me?
I still have tweeks I can do to training like joining masters class but wondering if holding onto this muscle is limiting me significantly.

9:49 at Whistler and being at least 15 lbs heavy for your height for opitmal tri performance is holding you back. Just lose the mass and you'll be flying. 9% body fat is also a bit high if you want to get really fast. Those extra 2-3% body fat (which is like 5 ish lbs of fat) is like a built in wetsuit which really hurts your ability to cool yourself during the run not to mention its dead weight, but its dead weight that you have to give oxygen to and its not allowing you to cool off. There is a reason why elite marathoners all weight sub 130lbs....they need the lightness and the ability to self cool at high intensity.

Yes, its holding you back A LOT even though you are already quite swift.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Good points.
I was obese before entering entering bodybuilding so I struggle to get below 9% without getting sick but something to keep in mind. Luckily due to larger muscle the fat is spread out so the fat layer isn’t too thick.

Losing 15 pounds, would I not risk losing significant bike power? Despite a 6 minute mechanical I finished the bike in 5:02(fastest bike of the day 4:53)

I have always thought I should lose weight but surprised it’s having that much of an effect.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're 175lbs. Of course it's holding you back some, and you probably knew this before asking the question, but you're not exactly built like a tank. I was 220-225 lbs at my first IM for the same reason (competing hobbies with lifting weights). I'm 6'3" and 200 lbs now and also got down to 9:45. I know it's not close to ideal weight, but how much weight are you willing to lose for a faster race by giving up another hobby?.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm aware that losing would limit my performance and to an extent I am okay with that. My more question is whether it is my limiting factor currently. I always thought I could still get to around 9hrs at my current body weight. My question is whether I have plateaued due to training/races conditions or whether my weight and body dimensions(ie. Aero drag from wide shoulder, running cadence due to large quads/hamstrings etc.) have got me at a point where I will struggle to improve.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You are already performing very well.

Is your muscle mass a limiter? For performance within this sport yes.

The question is how much can you drop without compromising health and still increasing performance.

I often see many times athletes obsessing about weight, getting as low as they can then never performing well, never performing consistently, or losing strength in their gait and power production.

Hard to say how much it is limiting you, for non-pro athletes once they get below 7% BF I always suggest holding that level for a short period of time (4-8 weeks) as it is just not healthy to maintain that all year.

I would suggest if anything to race a few pounds lighter each race and see how you feel and perform.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah...you aren’t really “that big”. I’m 5’11” and 200lbs and built big (former high level hockey player). I can dip my toes into the high 180s for weight, but I start to look emancipated to do so.

At your size you can improve YOUR time, but you’re not going to reach “elite” no matter what. I focus on what I can do (5:30 at st.g 70.3) and go from there. But I also DO NOT want to lose the muscle I worked long and hard to get. I’d rather finished last but look good doing so, then be first and look like a twig that is scared of a good steak. That concentration camp look just isn’t a good one (IMO).
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [Culley22] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Haha true. I was always scared of losing muscle at the start for looks but I'm even having trouble losing muscle. I went from lifting 5x/week in 2017, 2-3x a week in 2018 down to strictly core and stability work and I'm still holding onto 15.5" arms and a 42" chest.
I don't even know how I would go about losing weight considering when I diet, I loose fat and very little muscle.

I once had a dream of going pro but after training like a Pro for 2 years and not seeing much improvement, discouragement has pushed me off that.
Last edited by: BGildenstern: Aug 17, 19 15:25
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BGildenstern wrote:
Haha true. I was always scared of losing muscle at the start for looks but I'm even having trouble losing muscle. I went from lifting 5x/week in 2017, 2-3x a week in 2018 down to strictly core and stability work and I'm still holding onto 15.5" arms and a 42" chest.
I don't even know how I would go about losing weight considering when I diet, I loose fat and very little muscle.

I once had a dream of going pro but after training like a Pro for 2 years and not seeing much improvement, discouragement has pushed me off that.

Your weight is:

  • Limiting your bike climbing
  • Your bike aerodynamics more frontal from thicker body is more frontal
  • Run speed
  • Cooling in all sports (even including swimming)

It is helping your bike and swim power, but power does not mean speed. Many factors translate power to speed. Also your fairly constant size organs have to fuel the larger mass over a 10 hour day. If you lose muscle and fat, your organs stay relatively the same but have to do less work all day to feed less body mass.

You can lose muscle and fat....combo of training, diet, type of training, type of diet. The best time to lose weight is out of season when your training volume is moderate and you can afford to go into a deficit. If you are trying to lose weight and do big miles in training, its just asking for trouble.

If you don't want to believe the above spend one week doing all your bike rides and runs with a 15 lbs backpack. Then take it off and see how awesome you feel. There is a reason all male pro triathletes your height are substantially lighter
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The question of whether 15 pounds was having an effect was never the basis of the question but if 9:45 was the time when that is now what’s holding me back. If I was finishing in 11hrs when 15lbs would obviously still be an issue but obviously not the most crucial thing.

I mainly want to know if my weight is what is now the anchor or if I am doing other things wrong to not be improving at a rate that effect my training plan.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BGildenstern wrote:
The question of whether 15 pounds was having an effect was never the basis of the question but if 9:45 was the time when that is now what’s holding me back. If I was finishing in 11hrs when 15lbs would obviously still be an issue but obviously not the most crucial thing.

I mainly want to know if my weight is what is now the anchor or if I am doing other things wrong to not be improving at a rate that effect my training plan.

Fair enough. I am just pointing out that your body composition is higher on the mass scale than pros your height. Since pros generally have arrived at the opimal body composition for their height for triathlon (if you did a sample size of the KQ pros in each height bin from 5'10' to 6'4" you'd see what the weight needs to be at each height), then you have the data on what you need to get to.

Without seeing the rest of what you are doing, no one can say what is holding you back, but you're heavier than all the pros your height so we have that data and we know that lighter at your height is better for top human performance. Whether you can get there or not is only known by you. You can just try to lose the first 3-5 lbs from now to Xmas and gauge things and then if that works try to lose the next 3-5 between Xmas and April and then just stabilize and see what your body does.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What’s the point?
I would rather be 175 and not be scrawny and go 9:50 instead of 160 stick boy that goes 9:35.
Are you so concerned about 2 or 3 spots in a meaningless AG spot that you want to jeopardize your health for it?
Sounds like you’re a beast and in good health. I would just keep the status quo, enjoy the sport, and you’ll get faster naturally with a couple more years under the belt.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah also curious why you left BB to go to triathlons?

I’m an ex-crossfitter and just got into tris last year and I’m missing the way my body used to look. Something I really struggle with in that I love triathlons but don’t want to look like a top triathlete. Maybe that will change over time
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
KingMidas wrote:
What’s the point?
I would rather be 175 and not be scrawny and go 9:50 instead of 160 stick boy that goes 9:35.
Are you so concerned about 2 or 3 spots in a meaningless AG spot that you want to jeopardize your health for it?
Sounds like you’re a beast and in good health. I would just keep the status quo, enjoy the sport, and you’ll get faster naturally with a couple more years under the belt.

Really? That's just stupid, or hyperbole.

5' 11" / 160 lbs is hardly a health risk. I don't disagree with anything else you said... But, there's nothing "risky" about 160 lbs at that height.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom_hampton wrote:
KingMidas wrote:
What’s the point?
I would rather be 175 and not be scrawny and go 9:50 instead of 160 stick boy that goes 9:35.
Are you so concerned about 2 or 3 spots in a meaningless AG spot that you want to jeopardize your health for it?
Sounds like you’re a beast and in good health. I would just keep the status quo, enjoy the sport, and you’ll get faster naturally with a couple more years under the belt.

Really? That's just stupid, or hyperbole.

5' 11" / 160 lbs is hardly a health risk. I don't disagree with anything else you said... But, there's nothing "risky" about 160 lbs at that height.

In post #3, the OP himself said he gets health issues when he goes under 9% BF where he is currently at. His words, not mine. So my statement was based on that assumption.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yea everything I seem to get below 9% while training hard the immune system and hormones take a hit and end up with a cold that sidelines me for a while. I'm sure if I tried in the offseason I may be a bit more successful.

I honestly think I would struggle to get down to 160 as my body holds onto muscle pretty well. I lifted twice in Feb/March/April and lost zero size while runnings 60 miles/week. That said, if my weight was the weak link then I would consider losing 5 or so pounds. I just really want to go sub 9hrs. Whistler is one of the slowest courses and played it safe and had some mechanical issues so I don't think I'm far off on an average course but I just thought I would still be faster considering my volume but I guess that extra weight could be making that much of a difference.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [newtryguy101] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I was miserable in BB and knew that if I wanted to get where I wanted to go I would likely have to dabble in something I didn't want to. Ultimately I ended up with some seriously disordered eating and negative body image issues so I knew it was time to find something new....plus being able to eat more or less whatever i want and keep a 6 pack year round was attractive haha.

Honestly, I'm the happiest I have ever been with my body so maybe that will change with you too? I am a lot smaller than I used to be as at one point I was 190 lean but considering my muscles are 2x of most triathletes, I am a lot more vascular and I still have broad shoulders with a 29 inch waist, relatively speaking to the people I am surrounded and racing against, I feel I look pretty decent lol
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Few people go sub 9.

Perhaps with your uberbiker build, 1+4.40+3.20 = 9 ?
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BGildenstern wrote:
Good points.

Losing 15 pounds, would I not risk losing significant bike power? .

You may lose a bit of power, probably not > 5-10w. IM racing isn't about absolute power it's about holding a very high %, of FTP for a long time.

The time savings will come on the run. Running is much more weight dependent. It'll also be easier to shed heat if you're a bit lighter.

Honestly though you're crushing things at 9:49 with your weight/height.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you want to go sub 9, then do IMFL or IMAZ. You’ll be close.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
These darn muscles just won't go away!!!


"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BGildenstern wrote:
Yea everything I seem to get below 9% while training hard the immune system and hormones take a hit and end up with a cold that sidelines me for a while. I'm sure if I tried in the offseason I may be a bit more successful.

I honestly think I would struggle to get down to 160 as my body holds onto muscle pretty well. I lifted twice in Feb/March/April and lost zero size while runnings 60 miles/week. That said, if my weight was the weak link then I would consider losing 5 or so pounds. I just really want to go sub 9hrs. Whistler is one of the slowest courses and played it safe and had some mechanical issues so I don't think I'm far off on an average course but I just thought I would still be faster considering my volume but I guess that extra weight could be making that much of a difference.


Intermittent fasting.

Try 16:8 initially then try 18:6 and eventually on 2/day sessions do a light workout or two in the fast, then eat train eat. You’ll be able to burn off the last morsels on fat. Chug as much water as possible. Green tea is great as well as coffee.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
plant_based wrote:
BGildenstern wrote:
Yea everything I seem to get below 9% while training hard the immune system and hormones take a hit and end up with a cold that sidelines me for a while. I'm sure if I tried in the offseason I may be a bit more successful.

I honestly think I would struggle to get down to 160 as my body holds onto muscle pretty well. I lifted twice in Feb/March/April and lost zero size while runnings 60 miles/week. That said, if my weight was the weak link then I would consider losing 5 or so pounds. I just really want to go sub 9hrs. Whistler is one of the slowest courses and played it safe and had some mechanical issues so I don't think I'm far off on an average course but I just thought I would still be faster considering my volume but I guess that extra weight could be making that much of a difference.



Intermittent fasting.

Try 16:8 initially then try 18:6 and eventually on 2/day sessions do a light workout or two in the fast, then eat train eat. You’ll be able to burn off the last morsels on fat. Chug as much water as possible. Green tea is great as well as coffee.

This sound like a horrible miserable way to change your body composition for a hobby. There are much better ways. Any formula outside of eating a balanced diet and marginal limiting calories in versus calories out and taking 2 years to get to the new goal I'd steer waaaaaay clear of. The resultant body composition from these extreme approaches never stick and the body just rebounds back to worse than where it was in the first place.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lose the weight. Go to a plant based diet. You'll drop the weight, get lighter, faster and more efficient. Quit making excuses about holding to muscle, blah, blah, blah. You are over eating. Eat until full. No more and no less. Give up eating animals and you'll feel better and perform better. Drop the training volume down and increase intensity. Make the sessions count. No garbage yardage, so every workout has a specific purpose. Start now and don't look back. You will not look like a concentration camp survivor. Most people are obese, so their opinion of how they th think you look is irrelevant. You're too good to not maximize results because of body composition.

BGildenstern wrote:
Yea everything I seem to get below 9% while training hard the immune system and hormones take a hit and end up with a cold that sidelines me for a while. I'm sure if I tried in the offseason I may be a bit more successful.

I honestly think I would struggle to get down to 160 as my body holds onto muscle pretty well. I lifted twice in Feb/March/April and lost zero size while runnings 60 miles/week. That said, if my weight was the weak link then I would consider losing 5 or so pounds. I just really want to go sub 9hrs. Whistler is one of the slowest courses and played it safe and had some mechanical issues so I don't think I'm far off on an average course but I just thought I would still be faster considering my volume but I guess that extra weight could be making that much of a difference.
Quote Reply
Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I hope all of that is in pink...going to a plant based diet won't make him feel better.

To the OP...sounds like you just need to do the Slowman Diet if you want to prioritize Tri performance. Which is: race weight is when you look like a cancer patient. However, you could also just lose the fat and that's it and get faster over time.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Quote Reply

Prev Next