How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance?

Oct 22, 12 6:03

Post #1 of 45 (12550 views)

Steroids, not blood manipulation or any other PEDs.

Give your answer in a quantifiable manner. FTP or run pace gains over specific time periods, either directly from the PED or indirectly from increased training load.

What's my point? My point is I think a lot of you guys grossly over-estimate how much there is to gain from testosterone for your average age group endurance athlete.

Now I do think KM is a douche. Mostly from the drafting, which I promise I would have crashed both of us out of any race where he attempted to draft off me. For the test, I just think he is a moron. That shit probably hinders as many guys as it helps. Bloating, increased musculature and diminished natural production if and when it is terminated.

Let them use test. And weed. The only thing we should be concerned with are blood boosters. A famous doper once said, "A high HcT rules. Everything else is peanuts."

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 6:24

Post #2 of 45 (12512 views)

Good question. I don't think it helps aerobic fitness directly at all, but it helps build lean muscle mass. One look at KM should tell you what that means. no amount of dieting and core strength ever made me look anything like that.

My guess is that you see a boost in power to weight ratio with any anabolic steroid, rather than a direct a direct aerobic benefit (working the other side of the performance equation).

It would be nice if someone who knows more about these things could explain what the benefit of corticosteroids is? My understanding is that they reduce inflammation and suppress the immune system. What performance benefit would there be from these. The people have known that took these for severe asthma have had all sorts of bad side effects from long term use (bloating, osteoporosis ).

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 6:28

Post #3 of 45 (12502 views)

it's not the muscle mass... it's not the aerobic fitness. It's the recovery.

Taking testosterone you can recover from ass kicking workouts faster than you should be able to. That is your big advantage... and it is a big one... if the person doing them is willing to do the work.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 6:37

Post #4 of 45 (12468 views)

Directly not much or nothing.

Indirectly, the effect can be significant.

For endurance athletes steroids help mostly with recovery. Think of it this way. With no steroids you can do two really hard all-out workouts/week. Using a proper dosage of certain steroids you can now do three! Over time, this will make you fitter/stronger/faster than had you not been using steroids.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [leegoocrap] [ In reply to ]

Newyorkfan21

Oct 22, 12 6:50

Post #5 of 45 (12429 views)

leegoocrap wrote:

it's not the muscle mass... it's not the aerobic fitness. It's the recovery.

Taking testosterone you can recover from ass kicking workouts faster than you should be able to. That is your big advantage... and it is a big one... if the person doing them is willing to do the work.

Plain and simple this ^^^^

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 6:57

Post #6 of 45 (12417 views)

Steroids protect against ROS production. Which is definitely something you'd like to avoid. Quantifying is a different story though.

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 6:58

Post #7 of 45 (12414 views)

Grande Pelota wrote:

How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance?

What's my point?

I figured you were doing a cost-benefit analysis ;)

__________________________

Oh yeah!

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 7:07

Post #8 of 45 (12389 views)

Grande Pelota wrote:

Steroids, not blood manipulation or any other PEDs.

Give your answer in a quantifiable manner. FTP or run pace gains over specific time periods, either directly from the PED or indirectly from increased training load.

What's my point? My point is I think a lot of you guys grossly over-estimate how much there is to gain from testosterone for your average age group endurance athlete.

Now I do think KM is a douche. Mostly from the drafting, which I promise I would have crashed both of us out of any race where he attempted to draft off me. For the test, I just think he is a moron. That shit probably hinders as many guys as it helps. Bloating, increased musculature and diminished natural production if and when it is terminated.

Let them use test. And weed. The only thing we should be concerned with are blood boosters. A famous doper once said, "A high HcT rules. Everything else is peanuts."

There have been a few articles on velonews that have analyzed the top times posted in the TdF in the steroid and post-steroid era. There's a real gap there. Not massive, but enough to mean victory in those small margins of pro times.

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 7:52

Post #9 of 45 (12305 views)

I would say that it is a sliding scale. Of course they made ben johnson the fastest man in the world at the elite level, where the margins are very tiny between winning and 10th. In an older athlete like moats for instance, it is huge. In young athletes who have lets say 700 testosterone levels, and they dope to 900 or a 1000, it is going to be just a small advantage. But take an older athlete who has maybe 200 and he dopes to 900, well you can see what the difference will be there.

It would all be about what normal levels are at an age vs what the doped levels are. As with EPO, we know that you cannot just keep going higher and higher at some stage, people just start dying. Pretty good governor if you ask me, a death penalty that actually works..

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 8:10

Post #10 of 45 (12275 views)

Grande Pelota wrote:

Steroids, not blood manipulation or any other PEDs.

Give your answer in a quantifiable manner. FTP or run pace gains over specific time periods, either directly from the PED or indirectly from increased training load.

What's my point? My point is I think a lot of you guys grossly over-estimate how much there is to gain from testosterone for your average age group endurance athlete.

http://www.outsideonline.com/...sitive.html?page=all

I think you're very wrong, GP, though I don't have any firsthand knowledge, of course. The benefit of injury-free training must surely help boost FTP, especially for the AGer.

The benefits of increased training are cumulative. Yo get to keep those even when you've stopped doping.

AndyF
bike geek

Last edited by: AndyF: Oct 22, 12 8:43

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 8:39

Post #11 of 45 (12230 views)

So what exactly is the protocol for people that have testosterone as a legitimate medication? Are you just sol or can you compete just not as a pro or for slots?

In sports people shun these drugs, but they do serve a purpose for alot of people out there. For example, I have asthma. I have no clue if what I take (QVAR, Advair, Claritin) is on any list but if I had to race without them I would be risking a my life. Sounds dramatic but I have had 3 ambulance trips from bad asthma attacks, 1 of which was during a training run.

I dont know (and doubt) that I'm on any banned substance list, but hypothetically, if they were, what then?

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 8:42

Post #12 of 45 (12218 views)

No one here is going to be able to quantify the benefits but it basically allows you to significantly increase the volume of high quality training hours. For some that might mean going from 10 to 20 hrs/wk of quality training. The additional training, and the ability to achieve lower, leaner weight seems like a pretty big advantage.

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [gregf83] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 8:45

Post #13 of 45 (12208 views)

It's very difficult to quantify the effect of mental strength in performance. Yet, we all know that it's very important, and a key factor in athletic performance.
So, not being able to put a number on something doesn't make it less potent. A drug that helps lowering ROS production is a drug that should be banned
in endurance events.

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Francois] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 8:48

Post #14 of 45 (12194 views)

I'm not sure why you replied to my post. I don't think I implied Testosterone shouldn't be banned.

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [gregf83] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 8:49

Post #15 of 45 (12186 views)

No, sorry. I was answering to yours because you wrote the last post.

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Newyorkfan21] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 9:09

Post #16 of 45 (12144 views)

Not so plain and simple. Testosterone boosts RBC production, so it can boost aerobic performance directly especially in the context of very lean, highly stressed athletes who might normally be down a few hematocrit points.

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

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Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 9:24

Post #17 of 45 (12118 views)

Fleck wrote:

Directly not much or nothing.

Indirectly, the effect can be significant.

For endurance athletes steroids help mostly with recovery. Think of it this way. With no steroids you can do two really hard all-out workouts/week. Using a proper dosage of certain steroids you can now do three! Over time, this will make you fitter/stronger/faster than had you not been using steroids.

+1 to this. During my 5th year at college I met a middle distance track runner that told me about his experience with roids. Basically, said he could do his best workout imaginable and then come back the next day and be better. He described the net effect as very significant. Up until that time I thought roids were just about bigger muscles. He was thin as a rail.

Last edited by: SH: Oct 22, 12 9:25

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Jordano] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 9:51

Post #18 of 45 (12063 views)

Jordano wrote:

Not so plain and simple. Testosterone boosts RBC production, so it can boost aerobic performance directly especially in the context of very lean, highly stressed athletes who might normally be down a few hematocrit points.

And according to this, the older you are, the greater the increase in hematocrit:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18160461

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 10:11

Post #19 of 45 (12019 views)

furiousferret wrote:

So what exactly is the protocol for people that have testosterone as a legitimate medication? Are you just sol or can you compete just not as a pro or for slots?

In sports people shun these drugs, but they do serve a purpose for alot of people out there. For example, I have asthma. I have no clue if what I take (QVAR, Advair, Claritin) is on any list but if I had to race without them I would be risking a my life. Sounds dramatic but I have had 3 ambulance trips from bad asthma attacks, 1 of which was during a training run.

I dont know (and doubt) that I'm on any banned substance list, but hypothetically, if they were, what then?

A female Olympic cyclist spoke in one of my classes and she was prescribed testosterone because her levels were so low. If they are below a certain threshold (I have no idea what it is) testosterone is allowed in competition, but there are many rules that regulate how much you can take.

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 10:23

Post #20 of 45 (11990 views)

furiousferret wrote:

So what exactly is the protocol for people that have testosterone as a legitimate medication? Are you just sol or can you compete just not as a pro or for slots?

In sports people shun these drugs, but they do serve a purpose for alot of people out there. For example, I have asthma. I have no clue if what I take (QVAR, Advair, Claritin) is on any list but if I had to race without them I would be risking a my life. Sounds dramatic but I have had 3 ambulance trips from bad asthma attacks, 1 of which was during a training run.

I dont know (and doubt) that I'm on any banned substance list, but hypothetically, if they were, what then?

There are 2 classes of steroids:

cortic-steroids (asthma inhalers) which decrease muscle size

anabolic-steroids - increase testosterone levels to grow / repair muscle.

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [clarkoe] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 10:39

Post #21 of 45 (11960 views)

There is an article on slowtwitch from a few years ago by a guy that conducted controlled doping with his doctor to train for a PED legal bike race in Belgium. he explained how he was able to do a hard workout, then be recovered the next day and conduct another hard workout. I cannot find the article unfortunately. It was very interesting though. It mostly dealt with recovery and the ability to do multiple hard workouts and therefore become stronger.

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 19:12

Post #22 of 45 (11781 views)

furiousferret wrote:

So what exactly is the protocol for people that have testosterone as a legitimate medication? Are you just sol or can you compete just not as a pro or for slots?

In sports people shun these drugs, but they do serve a purpose for alot of people out there. For example, I have asthma. I have no clue if what I take (QVAR, Advair, Claritin) is on any list but if I had to race without them I would be risking a my life. Sounds dramatic but I have had 3 ambulance trips from bad asthma attacks, 1 of which was during a training run.

I dont know (and doubt) that I'm on any banned substance list, but hypothetically, if they were, what then?

USADA has an app called Global DRO that you can use to check any drug you can think of. I found that all the asthma and allergy meds that I have ever taken are legal and don't require a TUE. The exception is albutemol (sp), which has a dosage limit. I called the usada hotline and they explained that the limit is about 17 puffs a day, which is more than 3 times a normal prescription.[/reply]

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Francois] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 19:30

Post #23 of 45 (11738 views)

Francois wrote:

Steroids protect against ROS production. Which is definitely something you'd like to avoid. Quantifying is a different story though.

ROS, per se, might be a red herring though

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21148474

Nice to see you back, by the way.

Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [Grande Pelota] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 19:58

Post #24 of 45 (11694 views)

If you listen to Moat's interview on Ben Greenfields page you can hear him talk about being off of Testosterone for 4-5 months after he received his letter and he did a race. His time was exactly the same as the year before. He did have a lot of subjective feedback regarding energy increase etc. etc.. good listen

Dynamic Athlete ProgrammingVIP Endurance Racing | Like us on Facebook Get Your Training Plan Here

Re: How much do you think steroids aid aerobic performance? [german101] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 12 20:08

Post #25 of 45 (11669 views)

I'm pretty sure you mean Outside magazine.

Styrrell

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