assuming you warm up was easy, ie no 5 min vo2 effort beforehand, 110% for 20 min is reasonable as you will be tapping more than your aerobic system.

then we need to rethink the way in first approximation we establish the FTP, with 95% of 20mins test...

5 to 8 minutes for me, I know some people can go longer.

no, we dont, the question was how long can you hold 110%. you are not going to do a tt race/indoor or outdoor by zapping all your W', you are going to use it in your event. when i was racing, my "ftp" was about 92% of a 20min TT power which mean the 20min(10 mi) power was ~ 110% of my 40k tt power. it will vary by individual +/- but it wont be 105% just because some other protocol you use to estimate ftp has you using 95% of 20min. you are not following the same procedure in the 2 efforts

Well... One of the FTP tests that TrainerRoad uses is the 8-minute test. Their definition of FTP from that is 90% of max power you can maintain for 8 minutes. So, that is 111% of FTP. Therefore, you should be able to maintain 110% FTP for a little more than 8 minutes, but probably not a whole lot more.

I held about 109% of what I thought my current FTP is for 17:05. I Use this TT as my only FTP type test every. The computrainer always reads 10 watts higher than my PT. Taking 93% of the computrainer # is a pretty spot on barometer of fitness for me. If it wasn't so hot in that room I think I could eck out another 10 watts. Congrats on pipping Lucas at the line.

Don

Just to add in, the power I'm referring to is from my P2Max, which was four watts higher than the Computrainer. I always stick with what my powermeter reads in these events, as that's what I train and race with.

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what does your power curve say you can do?

Obviously the duration is individual, but I wonder if your FTP isn't a bit higher than you think. Still 15 minutes could be plausible. I tend to be able to hold 110% for ~10-11 minutes.

Well, now that the race is over the power curve says I can do 4.96 w/kg for 15:30!! I have done 4.8 w/kg for around 20 minutes (this was in November), so it seems plausible, especially given a racing environment and embracing the pain. Strava estimates my FTP at around 355 currently based on recent rides, although that seems a bit higher than I feel I could sustain for an hour.

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Your power curve from Zwift should include:

numbers for each race you do, as well as your 'best' in the last 90 days



If you use an alternate like TP/GC etc...you can look at cumulative data. This will give you a better idea of your 'bests' and can know what to target in races of various distances.

Why is it so impossible for people to understand the bigger picture here? The "20 minute test" is more than just a 20 minute effort. The "8 minute test" is more than an 8 minute effort. Any time people try to draw parallels between a single effort of those durations and the prescribed extrapolation from a benchmarking test with a set protocol, I just want to scream. Same people probably only look at the pictures in the news instead of reading the articles.

Can you be more specific about what you are objecting to here? In this particular thread, we are talking about a circular argument... Even though FTP is a conceptual thing, the inverse of the 8-minute test should align very closely with the OP's 110% question. It is imperfect, but if the OPs experience varies radically from ~8+ minutes, then it is likely that the FTP basis was inaccurate. If the percentage was anything different, then the analogy would not apply. (Well, except for 105.3%, which would align very closely with a 20-minute test.)

I think this is another case of as stated above missing the point. FTP is at best an estimate. As with all estimates it is subject to error. In the case of FTP on a really good day meaning everything is perfect, temperature, rest, motivation, fueling, warm up etc, etc etc.. you could say hit a number like 115, then on the opposite end of the scale things are way less than perfect say you hit 85, on average it might be 100? Now comes the fun part, if you do the test frequently under the exact same conditions then you create a moving target, since this is a form of training and if done often your fitness may increase or conversely you over train or do nothing in between and your fitness goes down... so what is the point of FTP? It gives you something to work with that has some relationship to your fitness to perform. If you track it over time one hopes the slope trends upward.

People are too hung up on the accuracy thing. Be happy you went slightly over what you "predicted" the number might be, it isn't far off.

for the reasons already stated in this thread. there is a protocol on those estimate tests, those same protocols are not going to be followed in an event

When I do a max 20min effort, I increase my average significantly in the last couple of minutes, especially the last minute. All of my best 20min effort averages have aged in the middle and finished with a surge. The below is my best recollection of the last one I did which averaged 305W.

0-5mins: Avg ~305W. Starting slightly fast then settling close to 300W.
5-8mins: Avg ~298W. Struggling to hold 300W. Sagging to 290-295 intermittently.
8-12mins: Avg ~292W. Really struggling to stay in the 290s.
12-16mins: Avg ~294W. Still struggling but knowing I'm well past half way helps mentally.
16-18mins: Avg ~305W. I force myself to raise the exertion gradually by ~10-15W.
18-19mins: Avg ~330W. Serious pain but the end is sight. I can block it out for that long and push to VO2max level effort.
Final minute: Stop trying to hold anything in reserve and throw it all at the pedals. I find it both agony and bliss once I reach that point. The adrenaline that comes with the final stretch allows me find another 100W even though I felt ready to drop a minute earlier. I fling the power up there, and hang onto it for dear life. Average ~400W.

If I force myself to attempt a more constant pace, my average power is lower. In reality, no matter what I do, I can virtually always find that extra gear as long as I know I can stop immediately after. But, I don't think this is is compatible with a 20min "FTP test" using the rule of thumb 95% estimation.
The above effort was on Zwift using their 20min protocol which includes a 5min hard effort prior to the 20min effort. Using 95% or 20min power gives an FTP of 290W. In reality I'd guess mine was closer to the 270-275W range at the time.

The 8 minute test main set by TrainerRoad, to which you refer, is 2 30 second efforts of 150 and 160% of FTP, then 2 8 minute intervals. FTP is 90% of the average power of those. Same criticism with you reference to the Dr. Coggan 20 minute test. The 20 minute interval is one piece of a more extensive protocol designed to estimate FTP, and neglecting parts of that, as you've done here, totally negates the results.

This doesn't mean that a single 20 minute effort on its own, or a single 8 minute effort on its own, can't provide meaningful data points on a power duration curve, but you still can't back calculate FTP from them. Not accurately, at least.

That is almost exactly my numbers and mid-test fade. The only change I have is standing every 5' and last 1'.

My stereo goes to 11

I held it for 20 minutes once a couple years ago when I went all in to get a course record on an uphill TT. Nothing longer than about 13 minutes last year though.

A couple years ago as a newbie to WKO4 coming from WKO3 I questioned why my mFTP was so much lower than what I had determined in by a typical 20 minute type test. I thought the explanation from Dr. Coggan at the time was sufficient. Not knowing everything because I did not reveal everything he thought two things may have been going on.

1. It is possible that I was fresh that day and was capable of hitting an exceptional 20 minute test result, but probably not capable of repeating that effort on other days so it was not a realistic number to use for setting intensity levels.
2. I had already had a number of weeks of consistent training and that my fitness had indeed improved, but the model had not yet picked up on this recent fitness bump. As a result what I was holding at 110% for 20 minutes may have actually been subthreshold had the levels been readjusted based on this new bump in fitness. If that makes sense.

A couple days later with some other efforts at different time durations and the mFTP in WKO4 did adjust to within a watt of what I thought and was using as sFTP. Therefore, what I did for 20 minutes at the old settings was not 110% and was more like 95% of sFTP.

In terms of training I found that using mFTP to be something I could hold and use for weeks of back to back daily training and was a more reasonable number for me to use.

It was also interesting that during that time I was trying out Xert and it had my threshold equivalent to be higher. I tried using that number and within a few weeks I was facing burnout as it was too aggressive to keep using. Ego wise I held on that number and that was a humbling mistake. I think Xert improved some of those aspects, but I did not use it beyond the trial period.

Edit: I think now as honest as I can with this question, "could I hold near that amount for 60 minutes straight?" Many of us have been doing 20 minute intervals so long that we can have regular training days that exceed 100% FTP especially if we are near a fitness bump, but that does not mean that we could hold it for 60 minutes and perhaps not even 45 minutes. That is if the monotony and heat management was not a factor. I personally do not live in an area where I could do a true outdoor 60 minute effort uninterrupted by traffic stops and other issues.

Just another data point, but Strava says I’ve done 110% of my ftp for 13 minutes.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

This is the correct answer.

And don't ask why 10 isn't just louder.

It's probably the total wrong way to do it, but I usually guess at a target for 20min after a long build-up and set the erg to it and remind myself my body should make me stop before I die. I usually lose a watt by soft pedalling for a few seconds around minute 16 or so.

110% About the tried and true 8-min or so.

I've held 110% of ftp for close to 20'. I've held 110% of max 20' power for 7 minutes.