Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race.
Quote | Reply
During his delayed victory speech at IM 70.3 Boulder yesterday, Callum Milward mentioned the peleton following them on the run, how it seemed they all wanted the Americans to win, and called out Joe Gambles specifically for supporting Ben Hoffman openly and that he's never supporting Joe again (was hard to tell if that was a joke or not...)

There was definitely a group of friends and supporters of the front pack of pros following them on bikes during the entire course. A friend of mine who was photographing the race says he heard Gambles telling Ben, "Let them surge, Ben, just sit back and..." while Callum was surging.

Here are some photos (photos by Kenny Withrow):


https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/...e0d3&oe=5C11D791



https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/...62d3&oe=5BC5586F


How is this not a pacing violation? Not just on Joe's part but on the part of all the people riding with the racers, other than the lead biker and officials?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
http://www.motivengines.com
@EdwardOMalley
Last edited by: RowToTri: Aug 5, 18 9:54
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The bikers are riding at the pace the runners are running.

The runners are not running at the pace the bikers are biking.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What?

If my buddy rides along next to me on a bike while I am running in the race, for more than a couple of seconds, that is a pacing violation. Does not matter if he is matching my speed or I am attempting to match his. If he is giving coaching or advice while doing this, that just makes it a stronger violation.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
http://www.motivengines.com
@EdwardOMalley
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rolling spectating is the best

Eric Reid
AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, USAT Level 1 Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits | Ventum Bicycles and Frames
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I totally agree that as a spectator that this would be a lot of fun. But it still seems like a rule violation to me. Can anyone explain how it is not?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
http://www.motivengines.com
@EdwardOMalley
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 At least in the second picture there is no pacing since all the bikes are behind the runners.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Last edited by: japarker24: Aug 5, 18 10:14
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If my coach/friend/wife rides behind me on the course, and an official sees it, that's a penalty.

There are plenty of threads on slowtwitch discussing this rule. Hell, someone was DQ's for having a guy in a gorilla suit that they did not even know run next to them for like 15 seconds. Do we ignore it just because it involves top pros that we like? Having your friend ride along with you and give you coaching and advice during the race is not outside assistance?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
http://www.motivengines.com
@EdwardOMalley
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Personally if I was so concerned about it I would email the RD and USA triathlon and ask them
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maybe Jimmy will come on, but I would say that it doesn't violate the spirit of the sport although technically it may be a violation. This is somewhat allowed to happen at Kona, especially on the Queen-K, except they don't allow anyone in the Energy Lab. Maybe that is also one defining aspect of the race because it is so baron. Regardless, here it doesn't violate the spirit because it would be impossible in my opinion to determine who is helping who, or if anyone is being helped. IMHO violations should be given, in general, when someones gains an unfair competitive advantage. The rider on the far right of the picture is Rudy Von Berg FWIW.

I could give some anecdotes about times when overzealous refs have ruined races by policing for technically violations instead of being practical and understanding the situation. As an athlete, sometimes it is best to let the athletes play the game.


Save: $20 on Air Relax Recovery Boots| $100 on Normatec| 15% on The Most Absorbable Magnesium | Best $50 Indoor Cycling Desk

Blogs: $10 Rimless Aero Sunglasses | QUICK Air Relax Travel Case Review | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | Why Latex Bikes Tubes | Vittoria Corsa Speed Aero Data | 10 Reasons To Consider HED JET+
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think this sounds generally right, except that it sounds like it was quite possible to tell, at least with one spectator/athlete combo who was supporting who. Callum certainly noticed this, given his speech, and it seems to have bothered him.

But if this is the case, how are we to know what the line is and how not to cross it? Penalty for this is immediate DQ, so playing in the grey area sounds pretty risky. I've asked refs pre-race to clarify certain parts of the outside assistance rule and they always take it VERY literally - for instance I asked that if I take my own hydration bottle with me from T2, when it is empty can I toss it to my wife or must I throw it away at a aid station trash can, I was told I must throw it away. Seems to me that tossing it to my wife does not give me assistance in the race, it just saves me $25. 2 refs at 2 races have told me that. Why is so much more leeway given in this situation? Just happens to be a less lenient ref? Ref doesn't mind DQ'ing a random AG'er but doesn't want to rock the boat at the front of the pro race where it will be very controversial?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
http://www.motivengines.com
@EdwardOMalley
Last edited by: RowToTri: Aug 5, 18 11:01
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RowToTri wrote:
During his delayed victory speech at IM 70.3 Boulder yesterday, Callum Milward mentioned the peleton following them on the run, how it seemed they all wanted the Americans to win, and called out Joe Gambles specifically for supporting Ben Hoffman openly and that he's never supporting Joe again (was hard to tell if that was a joke or not...)

There was definitely a group of friends and supporters of the front pack of pros following them on bikes during the entire course. A friend of mine who was photographing the race says he heard Gambles telling Ben, "Let them surge, Ben, just sit back and..." while Callum was surging.

Here are some photos (photos by Kenny Withrow):


https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/...e0d3&oe=5C11D791



https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/...62d3&oe=5BC5586F


How is this not a pacing violation? Not just on Joe's part but on the part of all the people riding with the racers, other than the lead biker and officials?

Pros are different man...especially male pros...
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
I asked that if I take my own hydration bottle with me from T2, when it is empty can I toss it to my wife or must I throw it away at a aid station trash can, I was told I must throw it away. Seems to me that tossing it to my wife does not give me assistance in the race, it just saves me $25. 2 refs at 2 races have told me that.

Throw it on the ground. Then, she just happens to be the one to pick it up. If they see you it's only a blue card worst case scenario.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RowToTri wrote:
How is this not a pacing violation? Not just on Joe's part but on the part of all the people riding with the racers, other than the lead biker and officials?

First off, no one was wearing a gorilla suit, so they’re ok from that standpoint

I’m wondering if it’s because it’s not just one runner but rather a group of runners that they are biking next to

Matt
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So basically if I didn't like somebody (alot) and wanted them to get DQed I could just run with them for a while (whether they want it or not) until some race official takes notice? (PS: No, not planning on doing that. Its just to show how absurd this seems to me)
Last edited by: surrey85: Aug 5, 18 11:31
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [surrey85] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
surrey85 wrote:
So basically if I didn't like somebody (alot) and wanted them to get DQed I could just run with them for a while (whether they want it or not) until some race official takes notice? (PS: No, not planning on doing that. Its just to show how absurd this seems to me)
pink....You think that might be the reason Lange got a penalty last year in Frankfurt when Faris was besides him for 20 secs.

No outside company. Point.

-shoki
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Pacing at it's finest.

And looks like another example for "rules are different for the Pros" in our sport (not that I think of Pros as "role models" to begin with).


What irks me more is the headphones and cell phone use....That's just plain dangerous.

So I as an AG athlete I really wouldn't want to have any of these guys around me to begin with.
.
.
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Two things wrong with this

1. The athletes that are on the bikes should know better than to be on the course like that while the race is going on.

3. The race officials who witness this did nothing to get the cyclists off the course.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [surrey85] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
surrey85 wrote:
So basically if I didn't like somebody (alot) and wanted them to get DQed I could just run with them for a while (whether they want it or not) until some race official takes notice? (PS: No, not planning on doing that. Its just to show how absurd this seems to me)

Yes, and this get back to the overzealous refs. They could even be heckling you... Hence why, given the context of the situation, if the refs had a problem they should first approach you and ask what you are doing, not just put it on the athlete.


Save: $20 on Air Relax Recovery Boots| $100 on Normatec| 15% on The Most Absorbable Magnesium | Best $50 Indoor Cycling Desk

Blogs: $10 Rimless Aero Sunglasses | QUICK Air Relax Travel Case Review | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | Why Latex Bikes Tubes | Vittoria Corsa Speed Aero Data | 10 Reasons To Consider HED JET+
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [zoom] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
zoom wrote:


1. The athletes that are on the bikes should know better than to be on the course like that while the race is going on.


Hard to tell if they're "athletes" in the picture in this thread.

Quote:

3. The race officials who witness this did nothing to get the cyclists off the course


Broadly speaking in terms of job descriptions, it's the job of course marshals to regulate traffic, not race officials. The race official has the job of enforcing the rules of competition, the course marshal enforces the race director's intended regulation of traffic.

Edit: Unless you meant "race official" to broadly mean all enforcement personnel...just when I hear "race official" I think of the USAT-certified officials. While marshals are often volunteers, etc, with no training in the rules of competition.
Last edited by: trail: Aug 5, 18 15:52
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windschatten wrote:


So I as an AG athlete I really wouldn't want to have any of these guys around me to begin with.
.
.


Somehow I suspect you might be relatively safe from the scourge of having an entourage of spectators so interested in your performance that they want track your run on bikes. So this sounds like a win-win for you and the would-be entourage. :)

Hey everybody - we have to call off that windschatten-pacing group ride. Sorry, it's a no-go.
Last edited by: trail: Aug 5, 18 16:01
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
People having fun watching a triathlon! This must be stamped out immediately or it might start to become a....spectator sport. :)
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't disagree. If I do not do this race next year, I'd love to join the peleton. But:

1) If we're going to allow it, we need to allow it, not just selectively look the other way. It needs to be done so that it does not negatively impact either the pro race or the amateur race.

2) Those are mostly pro triathletes on the bikes so it's not exactly expanding the fan base.

3) On the second lap they would have had to pass the top 10 or 12 amateurs and some pro women. I hope that was done respectfully.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
http://www.motivengines.com
@EdwardOMalley
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah, I agree with all those things.
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
idk plenty age group supporters would be jumping in all over the course if they were allowed to.
Quote Reply
Re: How is this not a pacing/outside assistance violation? IM Boulder 70.3 Pro Race. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I do not see any assistance provided whatsoever. Can you identify one cyclist out of that pack off to the side or behind and tell me which pro they specifically assisted and how?
Quote Reply

Prev Next