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How important is fast running in training?
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All the coaches and want to be ones.

Some background first, I'm 49, with only one full distance race in calendar at the moment. I'm trying to improve my run, but at this age (especially next year) something like 3.30 marathon (5min/k or 8min/mile) would make me very competitive.I've been doing this for some time and been few times to Kona etc.

My current coach is suggesting I do some speed work in my interval sessions, 400m and 200m with 3.40 and even 3.20 (5.15min/mile) pace. On a good day this might be even fun but those rarely occur anymore and I feel the risk of injury is really getting quite high.

What is your opinion, do such workouts actually bring something I could not get otherwise (gym work, running up a hill/stairs)? Are they worth the risk (or is there actually a risk or am I just being soft)?
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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As a non-coach, I'll take a stab. I'm 42 and have found over the past few years that tempo paces do more for me than all out track-based speed work, and the risk of injury is lower. I used to do a lot of 400 and 800 reps, but now my Wednesday track workout is a 5 mile tempo run, trying to descend the pace by around 5 seconds per mile. I still do strides several times at the end of most runs, and that certainly helps with the leg turnover and being able to hold onto the speed I once had.

In my last 70.3 in 2019 I had a two minute run PR (1:27) based solely on tempo runs as my faster stuff. Earlier in 2019 I was only around 30 seconds off my half marathon PR, again doing very little 'speed' work. This is my personal experience, and I know there are certainly many runners who do include speed work as they get older. I'll also add that I'm doing some body weight exercises for my hips, glutes & core three times a week, which I think helps out a bit.

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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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For Ironman, your running economy is likely going to be the thing that either holds you back (if you have piss poor economy) or propels you to the podium. Raw speed will likely have minimal impact on your Ironman performance, and as you mentioned, carries an increased injury risk as someone who's about to turn 50.

A few things that can improve your running economy:

*More easy miles
*Losing a couple pounds
*Cadence (eek! - scary topic)
*Strength training
*Plyometrics
*Short intervals, but not necessarily all-out efforts, which is what the paces you mentioned sound like they could be. Think more along the lines 20-40 second strides, building toward 5K pace.
*Hills
*Shoes?

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Last edited by: darkhorsetri: May 11, 21 10:27
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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natethomas wrote:
As a non-coach, I'll take a stab. I'm 42 and have found over the past few years that tempo paces do more for me than all out track-based speed work, and the risk of injury is lower. I used to do a lot of 400 and 800 reps, but now my Wednesday track workout is a 5 mile tempo run, trying to descend the pace by around 5 seconds per mile. I still do strides several times at the end of most runs, and that certainly helps with the leg turnover and being able to hold onto the speed I once had.

In my last 70.3 in 2019 I had a two minute run PR (1:27) based solely on tempo runs as my faster stuff. Earlier in 2019 I was only around 30 seconds off my half marathon PR, again doing very little 'speed' work. This is my personal experience, and I know there are certainly many runners who do include speed work as they get older. I'll also add that I'm doing some body weight exercises for my hips, glutes & core three times a week, which I think helps out a bit.

+1 in 2019 I consulted with a well known pro who advised I need more speed intervals which I did and feel like I lost endurance. At 44 I am seeing better results from tempo runs.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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I think you should keep doing speed work as you age, just dial it back.
At the very least a Monaghetti run once a week isn't going to kill you.
Sometimes I'll run to a track that's 15min from my place and do 200 fast, 200 easy until I'm tired and then run home easy.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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I asked friend who just got her Pro Card after IM Florida how she was able to run so fast off the bike (3rd fastest Female) she said "make the long runs hurt"! Since I live in flat flat Virginia Beach she said I needed to be intimatley familar with a local bridge. So far its working, I did a hard hill 70.3 Saturday and had my fastest run and it was eight minutes off my stand alone half PR which was done in November 2020 on a course that was flatter than a pancake.

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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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I'm older than you and my coach has me doing 800m t0 1200m very fast tempo intervals that hurt during track workouts. I wouldn't call them sprints and what people call "speed work" is all based on their own perspective. I have had the same questions in my head that you do but this I know: These workouts haven't cause me injury, my tempo speed has gotten faster, and my marathon pace has gotten faster. Did these workout cause that? I don't know but I do think they are part of the puzzle to getting faster.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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Billabong wrote:
I asked friend who just got her Pro Card after IM Florida how she was able to run so fast off the bike (3rd fastest Female) she said "make the long runs hurt"!

I agree with this, but will add that, at our (OP) age, we need to be smart about recovery. My most successful marathon run season had two key workouts each week, the first was 1 & 2-mile repeats at marathon pace. I built that up to 5x2 miles on the track. The second was the long run. Every other week was a progression run that ended with the last 10 minutes at marathon pace. I'd have to modify that a bit today with more recovery.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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I would listen to your coach who knows your athletic background, training history, and injury history compared to a bunch of dudes on the internet who don’t know anything about you.

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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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Just personal experience. I'm 60+ and quit doing speedwork 4 years ago. My half and full marathon times suffered, but I had some lingering issues that needed to heal. During the covid break, I got healthy and started doing speedwork again. Just 100's and 200's once a week. Last weekend I ran my fastest half marathon in 4 years... by over 3 minutes. The difference is quite noticeable. I won my age group with plenty in the tank, and considering going after another BQ this fall. My times without the speedwork, wouldn't make it.

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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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Markko:

If you are a competitor, think fartlek. If you race in a bubble and set pace, then maybe intervals is the best solution. For triathletes vying for qualifications and elite efforts within age groups past mid-30s, intervals are probably not the best workouts for running. These are restricting, boring on a track, and hard on the body. The fast workouts should focus on fartlek. That is how competitors race -- increased speed efforts when being passed or when wanting to drop opponents. Sometimes these are short blasts to pass, others are long holding on or drawn out to drop the hanger-ons. Build the fartlek workout distances up to racing distances except for IMs/marathons. No need to exceed 18 miles in workouts, only races. Consider stepping away from intervals unless you need to learn what pacing times feel like or you are still competing in track.

Also, hills are good for speed. Do speed builds (pick-ups) while striding up hills. Recover on downhills. On lower angle declines, long strides, without over striding, can be helpful for speed. Your body stretches/increases the stride length which translate to the easier feel of speed on the flats.



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Re: How important is fast running in training? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
I would listen to your coach who knows your athletic background, training history, and injury history compared to a bunch of dudes on the internet who don’t know anything about you.

This. Or alternatively do what the other posters say, sack your coach that you're not listening to, and send me the money you were giving her/him. \

What you are expressing is doubts and investigating is not bad in itself. I hope you've talked about this with your coach first, and indeed then use the comments here for discussion. And if your feel is that your coach hasn't got the interest/experience in developing programmes for 'older' athletes you probably do want to reconsider moving.

An investment in a coach is only worthwhile if you are fully confident placing your trust in them, albeit asking for explanation or how they've balanced risks is very valid.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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markko wrote:
What is your opinion, do such workouts actually bring something I could not get otherwise (gym work, running up a hill/stairs)? Are they worth the risk (or is there actually a risk or am I just being soft)?

I'm self-coached; that surely makes me a coach.

Mikael Eriksson says that if you do little VO2max work, then every VO2max workout is beneficial. It's low hanging fruit - an unusual bit of stimulus will bring big returns because you've not yet hit diminishing returns zone.

I say that you should either trust your coach or change them, and if you have doubts, raise them with the coach? But you know that, with your experience and all.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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Speedwork is more important as you get older than when you are young.
Speed goes away quicker as you age.
400's 800's mile repeats, dont be afraid.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. Speed work is important. My background... 2:50s marathoner and last half was 1:20 (at age 48, now 51). You don't need to do a ton of speed work, but IMHO you DO need speed work... IF you want to improve.

Colorado Triathlon Company, CO2UT 2021, Crooked Gravel 2022, Steamboat Gravel 2022
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Duncan74 wrote:
stevej wrote:
I would listen to your coach who knows your athletic background, training history, and injury history compared to a bunch of dudes on the internet who don’t know anything about you.


This. Or alternatively do what the other posters say, sack your coach that you're not listening to, and send me the money you were giving her/him. \

What you are expressing is doubts and investigating is not bad in itself. I hope you've talked about this with your coach first, and indeed then use the comments here for discussion. And if your feel is that your coach hasn't got the interest/experience in developing programmes for 'older' athletes you probably do want to reconsider moving.

An investment in a coach is only worthwhile if you are fully confident placing your trust in them, albeit asking for explanation or how they've balanced risks is very valid.

I just put my comments here, although not just directed at you.

Yes, of course discussion also with the coach, but he obviously believes in the stuff, otherwise he wouldn't prescribe it. I would reframe the doubts, as more like doubting myself, if I didn't I would just tell him to change it.

As for changing coaches as many have suggested, I dont really get what would that accomplish? As first speed workout would show up, I would be in exactly same position and if I would keep going until that would not happen, then wouldn't it be better just to tell the current one not write such workout?

Anyway, I went ahead and did the workout, but actually just based on relaxed feel and control rather than paces. When I later checked the paces they were actually more than 20s/km faster than intended, so I guess I'm not quite as slow as I thought, yet.

Anyway, thanks to everybody who answered, nice and varying opinions, so looks like not a trivial subject.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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If you are truly a 3:30 marathoner, i don't think you'd be able to hit a 5:15 but once or twice.

For 200s and 400s a 6:00 to 6:30 pace would be realistic and effective in improving your performance at VO2max.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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darkhorsetri wrote:
For Ironman, your running economy is likely going to be the thing that either holds you back (if you have piss poor economy) or propels you to the podium. Raw speed will likely have minimal impact on your Ironman performance, and as you mentioned, carries an increased injury risk as someone who's about to turn 50.

I came into this sport after 30 seasons of rugby union and league and have been gobsmacked at the amount of injuries there are in triathlon, mostly from running. And it's not just older people, many teenagers are ending up with nasty, long term injuries, predominantly stress fractures, it seems. And inevitably it's a lot of fast running that seems to be the culprit. 2 of our states junior athletes have been plagues by injuries and they're not yet 18, their pro careers look to be over before they've started.

I suppose you could blame the coaches or whatever, but perhaps it's time for people to start looking more deeply into injury prevention rather than smashing out hard sets and then getting injured. There was a study that reported out of 1000 college runners 80% had suffered long term injuries and a good portion of those were career ending.

It would be better to be running 90-100% easy/moderate week in, week out every year, rather than running hard for a few months, making progress, then needing 4 weeks off. And you're back to square one.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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Hi
I’m 53 and have 9 IMs including 2 Konas under my belt.
I’m around a 3.25 marathoner off the bike if all goes well.

I’m just concentrating on running at the moment and did 2 x weekly speed works session 200/400/600 etc over December and January and was running well and then bang! Achilles tendinitis!!
I think the best bang for buck as an older runner is Tempo work or 1k reps but don’t try and start too fast.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [Jonboy] [ In reply to ]
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Jonboy wrote:
I’m just concentrating on running at the moment and did 2 x weekly speed works session 200/400/600 etc over December and January and was running well and then bang! Achilles tendinitis!!

Wasn't it a case of "too much of a good thing" though? Load management is so important...

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know about you but I do this stuff for fun (a hobby). If speedwork is not going to be enjoyable for you, don't waste your free time doing it, sounds like you have had plenty of success without it. That said, I'd discuss with your coach and go from there but why have a coach you second guess/don't trust?
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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Markko, I think you would be better off doing your hard running intervals on a treadmill doing both steep hills and long faster intervals that are 3-4% grade but at slightly slower speed than the 5:15 per mile speed you are talking about. Keep in mind that you only need to run at 8 min per mile all day to go 3:30 in an IM marathon. Doing 5:15 per mile speed on the track is a speed you will never access in an IM. It is pointless in terms of training load, because the risk of injury is high. If you want to work you cardio at that level, run slower up hill. Or bike, or swim. If you want your legs to move at 5:15 pace, no problem if you can get some nice outdoor hills that are long you will tax your cardio going uphill, and while going downhill on low neuro muscular load run FAST downhill. Since you have oxygen to spare you will be more coordinated and won't get as injured as running the same speed at the track in cardio distress.

Nordicskier brought up a good workout also to get to the neuromuscular, which is 200m on 200m jogging at track. I would shorten it further and go 100 on, 100 off. This lets you ramp speed up to 5:15 per mile pace (78 secnds per 400m or roughly 20 seconds per 100m pace) without getting into any cardio distress, meaning your muscles will stay coordinated to apply force to the track so unlikely to get injured.

I agree with the others that as we age, if we can't do some speed we will get slower.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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AKCrafty wrote:
Billabong wrote:
I asked friend who just got her Pro Card after IM Florida how she was able to run so fast off the bike (3rd fastest Female) she said "make the long runs hurt"!


I agree with this, but will add that, at our (OP) age, we need to be smart about recovery. My most successful marathon run season had two key workouts each week, the first was 1 & 2-mile repeats at marathon pace. I built that up to 5x2 miles on the track. The second was the long run. Every other week was a progression run that ended with the last 10 minutes at marathon pace. I'd have to modify that a bit today with more recovery.

58

I totally agree. The other part of the conversation was go easy on your easy days, easier than you think.

Weeks 1 and 3 have Tempo run (Bridge work) Tuesday, Brick Thursday, easy Friday and Saturday. Long Sunday.
Weeks 2 and 4 Bridge Tuesday week 2, flat week 4, easy run Friday, Brick Saturday, easy Sunday

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Re: How important is fast running in training? [markko] [ In reply to ]
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I did 99% zone 1-3 all winter with high volume and PRd and BQd my marathon last month. The only time I felt close to injury was that 1% which was a short race series at the beginning of the year.
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Re: How important is fast running in training? [TJ56] [ In reply to ]
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TJ56 wrote:
I did 99% zone 1-3 all winter with high volume and PRd and BQd my marathon last month. The only time I felt close to injury was that 1% which was a short race series at the beginning of the year.

This is fair but it leaves out many aspects. I did a sub 3 at Boston many years ago off zero speedwork. I did all my intensity on XC skis and ran a lot of easy volume. 6 weeks before the race, I had to decide on what I needed to do to go sub 3. I felt that rather than adding speedwork or hillwork, or more running, my best path was to reduce my run volume a bit, and just lose weight. I lost 8 lbs in 6 weeks by limiting caloric intake and doing zero hard running. I just showed up lighter and also more fresh by decreasing training load.

This worked for pure marathon running as I did not need extra muscle that I used in XC skiing or for that matter in swimming for tris. If I showed up at that weight for an Ironman, it would be too light for my frame.

I bring this up because you said high volume, but was your body composition constant?
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