I will note that it's not just you that finds Trainerroad plans hard, even the base ones - the base one can def be hard if you are indeed coming off low/no training, esp for guys like me in the 40+ crowd. I never take any real totally off blocks from tri training but I do cut back significantly after big races, and the base plan was still surprisingly challenging for me when I did it the first time, had to cut at least one workout from it.

I'm currently finishing up the TR Oly Build plan, and it can get REALLY hard. Like the hardest I've ever ridden on an indoor trainer, and I'm no slouch to pain and suffering. I've def had to take several extra rest days and cut several workouts to keep it going, and while it has def made me stronger, I do seriously question whether this superstructured all-intervals approach to training is sustainable for long term training.

I actually suspect that the TR plans likely feel a lot more doable and sustainable for their pure cycling plans, as you have more of a 'base' on the bike to support those crazy hard intervals or those long tough SS rides. At least that's my theory - I know for sure if I'm having problems hanging to the Oly training plan, the (possibly large) majority of folks who attempt it are absolutely failing it for the most part.

Bottom line, do NOT feel like you're failing if you're unable to keep up the TR workout schedule. Absolutely take those rest days when you feel you're not going to be able to put up a decent showing on the bike. I've learned the hard way that it's absolutely better to keep the long-term sustainability in plan as opposed to trusting the TR TSS/intensity load settings and sticking to it even if you have to dig super deep. (I strongly feel the Oly plans are too hard as is - exactly as if a bike-specific coach wrote them, and underestimated the toll that significant running/swimming will have on the legs.)

Today? very. Because this weekend was much harder than planned (hard, and long run on Saturday, and very long/hard bike on Sunday). These were both due to conditions mostly out of my control, and I simply had to roll with it.

What did I do today? I ran 45 seconds per mile slower than normal---keeping the entire run down in Z1. I will also simply do a recovery swim tonight after work, instead of the hard swim that is on the books. Hopefully, I will feel better tomorrow and will be able to stay on track for the rest of the week.

I generally don't like plans with recovery WEEKS built in. I find that these "ramp" too fast, so that you are "dying to rest" by the time the recovery week comes around. I prefer a slower ramp rate that I can sustain "indefinately". If I dig myself into a hole its a one-off (like this weekend), and I insert 1-2 days of recovery on-the-fly.

If you've dug yourself into a deeper hole, you may need more than a day or two of easy/off days to get back to baseline.

How do you monitor your training? I use training peaks, and I use their TSS CTL/ATL/TSB system for monitoring...and managing fatigue/training stress. Whatever tool you use, you need to correlate that with when you feel good and bad...so you can find that middle ground where you can maniupulate how often you feel good and not-so-good.

I try to limit that "oh god my legs" feeling to about 2x a week, or maybe 3x during a race-prep period.

I also try not to build volume and intensity at the same time, but rather pick one or the other. Generally, I build volume first, and then trade it back for more intensity.

These strategies (mostly) keep me from digging a hole deeper than I can climb back out of in a day or two.

Yes, I learned that as well. Trainerroad plans, at least triathlon, are too hard. For some it might be okay, for me, definitely not. It's just way too much intensity for me. I can take more volume but not so much intensity that 3/4 rides are hard.

What's interesting is my heart rate intensity distribution though. In the base, where I felt strong and still improved a lot, I had 87% easy zone, rest is mid and high. In the build I had about 64% easy. Which gives me a good indication on how I have to train I guess.

But first... the fatigue has to go away :/

I don't know if i keep trainerroad. If yes, then only for handpicked workouts. Tbh now I'm not wondering anymore why they keep talking about getting sick on the tr podcast...

I totally agree with Tom. Basically, if your plan "needs" to have a recovery week, it is too hard on the other weeks.

What works for me is following a bespoke plan made by a coach with the sessions I need to do each week. If I start to feel too tired, I back off a bit on volume or intensity for 1 day or 2 and usually I am ready to go again. The caveat here is that if you have a written plan with what you need to do every week, it takes maturity and self confidence to know when to back off and derail from the plan for a day or two or three.

Re. TrainerRoad I think it's a good tool and I use it for some workouts it, but I don't like their plans. It's just too much intervals, which makes sense when you look it from their perspective. Would you subscribe to TrainerRoad and/or their plans if 80% of your plan's sessions were Z2 steady rides?

I keep track with trainingpeaks and TSS. I didn't really have lower TSS in the base phase though where I felt strong. I guess it's just because I still did some volume but a lot less intensity. Also my ftp might have been underestimated which led to easier workouts.

But anyhow, not all TSS are created equal. And actually with this downtime now I had more ctl in the base than in the build because of skipped or shortened workouts. Consistency was better in the base. I mean it's a good takeaway, only my next race is 3 months out.. So at some point I want to be back on the horse :/

Pick your poison. You can’t build a high intensity TR plan and expect high intensity swimming and running as well. Somethings gotta give. That means if you want to follow the TR plan, you’ll have to back off some intensity and duration of swimming and running (ie.
active recovery and short tempo stuff).

Or, it mught be OVERESTIMATED now.


With a properly calibrated FTP, I find cycling TSS to be remarkably equal across a wide range of intensities...at least once the "first time" effect is over...specifically from the perspective of RECOVERY. If you are finding interval sessions of various flavors, and z2 rides all with the same TSS to be remarkably different in terms of recovery....I'd submit that your FTP is probably overestimated---or other aspects of your training are doubling up on your total fatigue.

Are you a cyclist or a triathlete? I can't tell from the OP. Are you running at the same time with your TR plan?

Anyway, consistency is #1. So, if you're plan isn't allowing you to maintain your consistency then you need to adjust somehow. Without knowing more, its hard to provide any real guidance. But, I'd guess dropping an interval session in favor of a z2, and checking that your FTP is correct...maybe even dial it back just a bit, as its usually better to go a little easier than you CAN, than it is to overcook it.

"How fatigued are you?"

Yeah, I could use a nap

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I missed this post before I posted my second reply. Ok, so triathlete.

For me...I can handle 3 intense leg workouts a week...bike or run...and still manage to swim enough to maintain. Currently, that's a "mile repeats run", and a "5x5' VO2 bike", and a "2x20 bike". Anything else is z1 or z2 max. If I add a 4th B or R workout...the swim will suffer. If I want to focus on swimming, I have to drop the intensity on B and R to 1 per week (maybe a max of 2).

Are you setting your FTP correctly? Also you can reduce the intensity mid ride if you are struggling. I don't understand how people can complain the workouts are too hard?

There's a fun game in figuring out how deep a hole you can dig & bounce out of.

What makes it really tricky is the timescales, ie you can create some sharp fatigue in a day or week & deeper fatigue over a month or training block.

Three key items:
- Fuel: often I've found deeper fatigue to just be a lack of appropriate fueling, quantity, content and timing are important
- Rest: sleep, more sleep more progress.
- Focus: you can't do everything 100%, know what you're reducing or willing to cut to ensure you achieve your goal.

The Trainerroad build's are hard, last year I got through sustained power build (mid volume) & was pretty shot, did a 5k on the weekend which went well & then went for a swim... boom. Took me a couple of days to recover, this wasn't just some general fatigue, i'd fully blown my doors off. (CTL:159,ATL:194,TSB:-32)

Normally I have a faster run on a Tuesday morning, I'll use this as an indicator of how training is going, assuming that I get up on Tuesday & the run is pretty good then all is well if the rest of the week is a grind that's fine. If you don't have a weekly 'good' day then I'd look at trying to jimmy the schedule to see if you can get one.

This is interesting all the discussions lately about TR and the difficulty of the workouts. Makes me feel a bit better. I've used it the past 2 seasons after making a return to tri's. The first year did the 3 phase half IM low volume plan, generally went well. Last year I did the full IM low volume plan and it generally went well. This year I decided I'd step it up and try the half IM mid volume plan. Struggled through the base phase which I credited mostly to trying to find the extra time to squeeze in another bike workout. I trimmed a lot of weeks down to 3 rides instead of 4. For most of the sweetspot workouts I would do a zwift race instead. I didn't have a problem putting out the required work, just struggled with motivation with the interface. I was also trying my first structured run plan with speed/hills/tempo at the same time, so that probably factored in as well. After the base phase I decided to go back down to the low volume plan for the build phase. A few weeks into the plan I waved the white flag. Mentally I couldn't get up for all those over/under intervals. I just switched over to an 80/20 plan and refocused on a race later in the summer, instead of focusing on my first race. I absolutely love TR, but I think I just need some time away from it.

As for fatigue, for the most part I never minded it, but the past few months I found my breaking point and pulled back. Have to remind myself I'm doing this for fun. When I start to dread the workouts before they even begin, it's time to scale back, for me.

As touched upon, your age, base fitness, nutrition, rest duration/quality and training intensity will all dictate rest and recover need/frequency.

Post injury, i have a lot of fitness to regain, and due to the nature of my injury, fatigue is common. And with work and a young family, quality sleep is rare. I am also not 18 anymore.

I find that i start to get slower if i overtrain. A few brake days (no training or very light training) really help, as after a night or two off, i am much faster, usually above my prior best. So i usually train 4-5 days a week, with one day being all out.

I have a hard time training lightly, so i often take rest days instead, or shorten duration.

It is not a very scientific training program, but i am doing it for fun/fitness. And at this point in my (poor) fitness, i have nowhere to go but up (23% ftp increase in 2.5 mths). Once i start to plateau from the easy gains, i may do more targeted training.

I use training peaks and the 'form' measure, with their guidelines for recovery. I think it's no more than 2 or 3 days in a hole deeper than -20. I find that's a good measure for me... in my experience if I push too far past that, I get sick and/or injured.

iv blown gaskets doing TR plans. I have a feeling you could do them if you didnt run/swim. But the oly plan blew me up and i lost a good month trying to shed fatigue and slowly rebuild. I hired a coach as a result as i didnt know when to say when. So much v02 work, threshold etc all in the one week. Over the last month with my coach the bike workouts are much more manageable to the point i feel guilty going so 'easy'. Most i do is 108% FTP for shorter periods, lots of sweet spot etc mainly. No 120% fTP work anymore and i mostly do sprint tri's as well! i had a short race on the weekend and did well (for me), so high intensity is not the be all and end all. Just need a sprinkling!

Agree with much of the sentiment mentioned above, but wanted to plug in a podcast from the folks over at TR regarding overtraining, and the difficulty of the grind.
Pertinent starts at ~1:30 mark.

https://soundcloud.com/...-a-cycling-coach-194

I'm being cautious with them talking about overtraining tbh. They keep talking about how often they get sick and how often they stop training for a longer time. Could be any number of things of course but it would match my experiences with how they train

It's individual I guess. For us both it seems intensity is not the best way to improve. But feeling rested and doing z1/2 volume might work instead

Have a look at the HRV4Training app. I started using it 6 months ago after somebody here recommended it. Basically you do a 1 minute heart rate variability measurement each morning using either a HR strap or the camera on your phone (I found strap more reliable), and it gives you a recovery score. You can monitor trends over time and I've found it really useful to help quantify my level of fatigue/recovery - I.e. when I'm a bit fatigued but can still train normally versus when I'm starting to dig myself into a hole and need to take it easier for a day or 2 rather than making that hole bigger. Also really useful for quantifying the impact of non-training stress e.g. how much my recovery is impacted by poor sleep, work stress, long haul travel, when I'm starting to get ill, etc.

My experience of the TR plans is that the workouts are about spot on if you're starting each one fairly fresh (I.e. you've had ~12+ hours since your last workout, and ~24+ hours since your last hard workout). When I've done their tri plans I've quite often had to dial the intensity down 5% or stop a session early as I wasn't able to fit in key swim and run workouts with enough of a break before a TR ride. A month ago I switched to almost pure bike training with the occasional easy ride or swim, and so far haven't had to skip or dial down a single session (this is on sweetspot high volume plan so 6 rides a week of which 5 are sweetspot rides). Have also noticed that my HRV recovery scores are much more consistent since I'm doing all my cycling first thing in the morning which means I'm pretty well recovered the next morning. When I was doing tri training I often did hard sessions in the evening which had a bigger impact on my recovery scores.

Basically, balancing out good quality training in 3 different sports is bloody hard....

curious, how is the bike training focus going? Planning this myself in the offseason. Noticed any improvments with a lot ogf sweet spot stuff?

I do take HRV measurements. I use EliteHrv for a few months now, values where quite good for a while actually. Sometimes they weren't even really dropping next morning after a vo2max run in the evening before. So I was taking the training quite good which I was so happy about after being in a mode of constant fatigue last year.
I can pretty much pinpoint the hour where the wheels fell off though :) (for now at least) 1 1/2 weeks ago I did a swim in the morning, felt great, no soreness, had an "easy" ride planned on trainerroad for the evening but swapped it for a gym session as I just sometimes did. From Nov-Jan I did 2 gym sessions a week and it worked really well for me. But this gym session 1 1/2 weeks ago something was off. My legs felt completely wracked. Extreme DOMS for the next 4 days or so which I never had the months before. With that all the other things followed. Tiredness during the day, underperformance, less hours of sleep even though I feel completely tired during the day and so on.. Also my HRV values were dropping and are still all over the place. Today, after a rest day (3rd within 5 days) it was even lower than yesterday. I overthink the fatigue though as well and I'm worried about feeling shit like last year and not being able to train and loosing fitness I built during the build which makes me nervous which again brings hrv down I assume. From time to time I had this extreme parasympathetic hrv day, meaning my resting hr was 8 beats lower than usual, hrv was way up and I felt fatigued but somehow deserved fatigue and it felt awesome. I knew when I take a rest day now I'll get stronger and it correlated with EliteHrv. I did miss one of those days recently though where I pushed through and trained :/ Bad decisions add up. Also I got a new bike and I HATE that I feel so shit currently that it wouldn't be good if I ride it. So that makes me feeling worse additionally.

Sorry for my rant ;)

In the end I think I just need some time off I guess to recover from the build. Did an easy swim this morning, which actually felt good, still tired though so let's see.

If HRV is still dropping even with easy sessions, and it's backed up by all the more subjective things like sleep quality, muscle soreness, etc then either you're pretty deeply fatigued and/or there's something else going on e.g. a virus, low iron levels, etc. Probably worth seeing a doctor to rule out any medical problems, if they don't find anything then chances are you've just been overdoing it and need a few days or even weeks of rest and recuperation. The fitness will come back quickly enough once you're actually able to train properly again.

I had the same last year and it's just a buildup of fatigue. This time I hope I recognized what is going on at least and hope to get rid of it with easy/rest days following the tr build now instead of pushing on and under performing in summer. A coach might be worth an investment for me.

Very good so far though am only 4 weeks in. RPE on the sweet spot sessions is going down every week, to the stage that they're feeling really pretty comfortable now and I'm almost tempted to either put my FTP setting up a bit or dial the intensity up a few % on workouts where I'm feeling strong. One big thing I've noticed is how rapidly my HR drops at the end of each interval, I seem to be recovering from the work much more quickly than I was at the start. Not sure how much of that is down to improved fitness, and how much to being less fatigued generally from cutting the swimming and running right back. I'm doing 2 group rides most weeks and have noticed significant improvements there compared to other riders as well, again the ability to recover quickly is a big factor as I'm recovering much more quickly after hard efforts on the front.

Looking forward to my next FTP test in a couple of weeks when I start Sweet Spot 2, expecting a decent boost.