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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
As someone up above mentioned, it's not just distance, it's distance and intensity.

What has worked for me is going at race intensity for up to 50 miles on the bike followed by 5-6 miles on the run. I raced very well off of that. Keep in mind for the 2 months prior I was working up to those distances at race intensity.

There is still obviously a time and place for longer standalone rides/runs at less than race effort, but I think this approach for the brick is very beneficial.


My 70.3 prep was similar.

I would do the above workout on Saturday. 50-60 miles on bike followed immediately with 5-6 mile run. The intensity on the bike was race pace, the run was easier and intended just to get the legs used to running off the bike. After the Saturday workout I would do an ice bath and get plenty of fluids and protein to help recover and get ready for the Sunday workout.

Sunday workout would be 30-40 miles slightly slower than race pace followed immediately by a 10ish mile tempo run building speed and effort through the 9 mile mark (starting pace was slower than race pace, ending pace was faster than race pace) and then shutting it down and warming down over the last mile or two. If I didn't have enough base, didn't dial in the hydration/nutrition, or overcooked the bike, I would blow up on the Sunday run. If I had the conditioning, nailed the hydration/nutrition, and the pacing, I was flying (for me) at the end of my Sunday run.

Good luck with your preparations and enjoy the journey!!


Tad

It took awhile, but I finally discovered that its not the destination that's important, but rather the journey.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [ITRIhard] [ In reply to ]
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ITRIhard wrote:
I disagree with most people on this topic. I went sub 5hr this past September in my 2nd half ironman ever and my longest ride was 3hr long

At that pace though your bike leg is only, what, 2 1/2 hours plus/minus 10min? That's a meaningful amount more than 3 hours.

So you had a longest ride of 30 min longer than a 2 1/2 hr split.

That would be the same as a person on a 3 hr split having a longest ride of 3 1/2 hrs. So, the slower you are the longer your bike training rides may take time wise. That's why you tell new cyclists to train by hours, not distance. When you are a noob cyclist you plod along for 2 hours and manage 28 miles. Then when faster you manage 35 miles with hills.

Pretty sure the Time Crunched Triathlete book has rides longer than 3 hours in it.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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3 hour long rides are fine for a half ironman, as are 1.5 hour runs. any run over 1.15 is a "long" run imo.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
"Long" is defined by any run or ride whereupon completion of same I am greeted by D'Wife with: "Where the fuck have you been?"

So very true and very well said.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [vittorio] [ In reply to ]
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vittorio wrote:
Sean H wrote:
What's your weekly run mileage? I didn't find it hard to recover from those at all.


40-45 miles per week, the vast majority of it very easy (7:50-8min/mile) and volume through frequency (6-7 runs per week).
HIM pace is around 6:55-7min/mile.

But on further thinking, most of the 10k runs @ HIM pace that fucked up my recovery were done when I was already pretty wrecked. I mean, it's probably an issue of overall accumulated fatigue.



that is good mileage for HIM training, but personally i do not think that that is a very easy pace for running given your HIM pace.
As a point of reference, my HIM pace is 6:20-6:30, and I do the vast majority of my running at 8:00 or even 8:30, sometimes 9:00 if I feel tired and it's warm.
So your legs were probably thrashed because you are not doing enough truly easy running.

I think that a 50 mile ride at HIM pace followed by 10K run at HIM pace is a really, really tough workout in the context of a hard training cycle. I personally would not recommend that more than once or twice, unless my overall volume was very low, because the recovery cost would be too high.

My second point is that I have raced two HIMs now off of a long ride of no longer than 1.5 hours (continuous, on trainer). Total weekly bike volume averaging about 4 hours, lots of intensity. And lots of running too (~50mpw). I biked well at 78% IF, and ran well, about 1:25 off of a ~1:20 open half marathon fitness. And I'm a shitty swimmer and don't swim much at all, so that puts me behind the eight ball as soon as the gun goes off.

I'm sure I would have had a higher FTP and maybe could have biked at 80 or low 80s IF, but I didn't have time in my life to do long rides.

Bottom line is that you can race HIM quite well without long rides at all. If you like doing them, do them, but just know that they are not really necessary unless you are trying to eke out that last few percent of performance. IM is a different beast though, gotta do the long rides for IM.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
3 hour long rides are fine for a half ironman, as are 1.5 hour runs. any run over 1.15 is a "long" run imo.


lately I have just been running, a lot, for marathon training. I was commenting to my buddy the other day, any run less than 16 miles isn't a long run, it's just a run. Obviously this is not applicable nor necessarily advisable for vast majority of triathletes doing triathlon training. But then again most triathletes are crappy runners.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [solitude] [ In reply to ]
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solitude...how much time does it take you to run 16 miles? (ie 25.6kms) you must be pretty quick if you don't consider that long?

how many hours in a week does it take you to run 50 miles as you stated above?

plenty of elite itu guys/gals don't run much longer than 1.5 hours in a single run.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
ITRIhard wrote:
I disagree with most people on this topic. I went sub 5hr this past September in my 2nd half ironman ever and my longest ride was 3hr long


At that pace though your bike leg is only, what, 2 1/2 hours plus/minus 10min? That's a meaningful amount more than 3 hours.

So you had a longest ride of 30 min longer than a 2 1/2 hr split......
I was about to make a similar comment.

I think it's wise to ride longer duration in training than you will in the race. Distance is not the critical factor. Wind and terrain can dramatically impact the time it takes to cover a given distance. I think 3.5hrs is a sensible long training ride duration if you expect to ride about 2.5hrs where I am at the moment for rolling/flat routes. If you expect to take in the region of 3hrs, then I'd be doing slighty longer rides. Maybe 3.5-4hrs. If you have the time, I think even longer rides, some of it at lower intensity, will do no harm. A lot of guys here seem to be working very hard on their long rides (and runs). I prefer to work really hard on short mid-week rides and then take it a lot easier for the longer stuff at the weekend. I'll do occasional hard long rides in late spring to see how I hold up when I push the intensity on long rides, but if you make all your rides hard work, that tends to dull you and the result is that your shorter, harder rides become less intense IMO. Making every ride a heavy workout kills my enthusiasm. Variety and recovery please!

Long rides don't require huge recovery unless you ride them at excessive intensity.
I'd often do 2x20mins@95%FTP with 4 minute recovery. Add a 15 minute recovery and 10 minute cool down and that's 69 minutes. I usually do these on the trainer but distance wise, for me, it's equivalent to maybe a 37-38km ride. I'd typically need at least as much recovery from that, done well, as from my lower intensity 3-4hr ride in the mountains.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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My peak weekends for my last 70.3 had a long Saturday ride of 2.5 to 3 hrs, and a Sunday brick of 45min-1hr on the bike and 10-12 mile run.

I'd still put an asterisk on my 2:37 bike split at Muncie because the air gets so soft in Mdot races, and my run was 2:05.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [beastofbourbon] [ In reply to ]
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beastofbourbon wrote:
..... the air gets so soft in Mdot races.....
What does this mean?
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
solitude...how much time does it take you to run 16 miles? (ie 25.6kms) you must be pretty quick if you don't consider that long?

how many hours in a week does it take you to run 50 miles as you stated above?

plenty of elite itu guys/gals don't run much longer than 1.5 hours in a single run.



Usually about 2hrs 10 min, right around 8:00min/mile pace. Long runs take a lot less out of me when I run them easy. Same with the 50mpw. Probably takes me about 6.5-7 hours weekly, but the vast majority is at an easy pace.

Agree that my approach is not for everyone. More for people with a ton of run mileage in the legs and on a run-heavy tri training program. If I run them easy enough, 16 miles doesn't impose much of a recovery cost at all. Keep in mind that the ITU run is less than half the distance of a HIM run, and that they are doing way more weekly volume than I am which increases the recovery cost of a run longer than 1.5 hrs.

anyway, just want to add my contrarian perspective to the thread. I don't think you really need super long runs or long rides to race a good HIM, but if you have the time doing both is great, and if I had to pick one or the other I would go with long runs.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [CBJFan] [ In reply to ]
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CBJFan wrote:
RandMart wrote:
"Long" is defined by any run or ride whereupon completion of same I am greeted by D'Wife with: "Where the fuck have you been?"


So very true and very well said.

The corollary would be: Twice as long as it takes for you to say "Oh shit! I'd better get home"

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Don_W] [ In reply to ]
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Don_W wrote:
What were the weekly volumes for each discipline during those 4 weeks?



About 10 hours a week. I don't think I ever went over 12 hours.[/quote]


Meant to say (in terms of breakdown per discipline) about 3-4 hours of running, 1 hour of swimming, 5-7 hours of riding (per week)

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
Last edited by: Don_W: Nov 15, 17 7:05
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Do you think I need to up my volume/distance? not trying to sound pessimistic just a general ask, I am also always curious to others training and attempting to learn.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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ya what does this mean?
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [ITRIhard] [ In reply to ]
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ITRIhard wrote:
I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Do you think I need to up my volume/distance? not trying to sound pessimistic just a general ask, I am also always curious to others training and attempting to learn.
If I'm not mistaken, he's suggesting that a 3hr long ride for an athlete who will be completing the bike leg in around 2.5hrs is significantly longer duration than the race. For an athlete expecting to take 3hrs or more in the race this is not the case, so perhaps a weaker athlete needs more endurance? I would agree with that.

Weaker athletes are on the course for longer. For example a very weak runner could spend as long doing a half marathon as a really competitive runner would take to do a full marathon. So, if they're racing the same distance, it doesn't make much sense to automatically recommend they do equal duration long runs. The weaker athlete actually needs considerably more endurance and will be forced to operate at lower intensity to permit this.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
beastofbourbon wrote:
..... the air gets so soft in Mdot races.....
What does this mean?

I think he means:

When you ride in a pack, you have less wind to fight. (He was drafting).
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
beastofbourbon wrote:
..... the air gets so soft in Mdot races.....

What does this mean?


I think he means:

When you ride in a pack, you have less wind to fight. (He was drafting).
Ooooh! That didn't even occur to me.
Why didn't he just say what he meant..."My bike time is not legitimate. I cheat."?
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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....LOL. Very good one. And I guess kind of true for many of us....especially with kids.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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Before my first/only(?) IM i once did a 100 mile bike ride followed by a 10 mile run.

That still amazes me months later as an "I can't believe that seemed like a reasonable way to spend a Saturday morning". It was great at the time but back in the realms of just "normal" training now i couldn't imagine doing that sort of thing.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [solitude] [ In reply to ]
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solitude wrote:
vittorio wrote:
Sean H wrote:
What's your weekly run mileage? I didn't find it hard to recover from those at all.


40-45 miles per week, the vast majority of it very easy (7:50-8min/mile) and volume through frequency (6-7 runs per week).
HIM pace is around 6:55-7min/mile.

But on further thinking, most of the 10k runs @ HIM pace that fucked up my recovery were done when I was already pretty wrecked. I mean, it's probably an issue of overall accumulated fatigue.




that is good mileage for HIM training, but personally i do not think that that is a very easy pace for running given your HIM pace.
As a point of reference, my HIM pace is 6:20-6:30, and I do the vast majority of my running at 8:00 or even 8:30, sometimes 9:00 if I feel tired and it's warm.
So your legs were probably thrashed because you are not doing enough truly easy running.

I think that a 50 mile ride at HIM pace followed by 10K run at HIM pace is a really, really tough workout in the context of a hard training cycle. I personally would not recommend that more than once or twice, unless my overall volume was very low, because the recovery cost would be too high.

Thanks for the feedback.

I agree that it doesn't look "easy" enough, but I run basically on perceived effort and don't care much about the pace. Running slower than 5min/km (8min/mile) just feels super odd ans sometimes I feel it is harder to run like that than at a "natural" pace, one with a little more turnover and that makes my mechanics better.

Makes sense?
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [RCCo] [ In reply to ]
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OP, for what it's worth Joel Friel's Triathlete's Training Bible states:

"A general rule of thumb is that the longest workouts should be about the same duration as, or slightly longer than that discipline's leg of the longest race you will compete in. There are obvious exceptions at both ends of the race-duration spectrum. For example, it's not wise when training for an Ironman to go the full race distance in all three disciplines in a single workout, but training at twice sprint-distance duration can be beneficial."
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [somers515] [ In reply to ]
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thanks everyone. A lot to digest.
my A race is Vineman 2018, so not until next July. Just getting back into it, but my runs have been 10-miles on Saturday. Those will go to 12 in December, and stay at 2-hour pace while my body re-adjusts to running. I re-read the BarryP stuff, and it's going to be very tough for me to schedule 6 runs/week over the Winter. I'll be at 9-10 hours/week until Spring: 2 hours swim (3x), 3-4 hours bike (3x) and the rest running.
For the cycling, during my 3 weekly turbo sessions, I plan to get up to 2 hours, but no more, for Winter. Once the weather breaks (and in California it's usually just fine by March), I will get some 60s in there. I do like all the suggestions for intensity on those as well, instead of just rolling around for 3 hours.
Thanks again for all the input.
Michael
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [RCCo] [ In reply to ]
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RCCo wrote:
Before my first/only(?) IM i once did a 100 mile bike ride followed by a 10 mile run.

That still amazes me months later as an "I can't believe that seemed like a reasonable way to spend a Saturday morning". It was great at the time but back in the realms of just "normal" training now i couldn't imagine doing that sort of thing.

I did two 90/14's in my IM build. Seemed nuts, then.....and seems nuts, now.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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If I was you, I wouldn't try and spread the cycling time around too much, by which I mean I'd keep the short rides relatively short (say 60-90mins) and if possible allocate more time to the weekend long ride. So if you've say 6hrs to spend on the bike, don't do 3x2hrs or 2x1.5hrs and 1x3hrs. Instead do 1x60mins, 1x75mins and 1x3.5hrs or similar.

Best to make your hard rides hard and your long ones long rather than make everything kinda hard and kinda long. It'll have better impact and be more interesting.

I've just started a BarryP style approach and I'm getting 2 short & easy runs in by tagging them onto the end of my two weekday short hard trainer sessions as a Brick. It saves time doing them back to back, you only get changed once and have one shower. Wouldn't work with a longer run or anything above easy recovery effort since I'm already spent from the bike session.
So far this working well but my run volume is still small. Will see after Christmas when my volume is climbing whether this continues to work but I think it will.
My plan will hit 10-12hrs per week after Christmas and would be very sufficient training for a 70.3 IMO.
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