How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff?: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff?

Sep 16, 03 8:39

Coming off a rather disappointing season of racing I am seeking some input from the experts at slowtwitch with regards to racing both long and shortcourse during a season. My goals for this year were to complete IMLP (my first) and to place highly in the regional xterra series. The first half of the year was awesome, The xterra series started in May and I was doing OK but improving every race. I did a 4:53 1/2 IM a month before Lake Placid, (my fastest half ever) but then about two weeks before IM I started to slow down a bit, I didn't feel tired or burned out I just didn't have the same zing. At IM my bike leg was nearly catastrophic. Having averaged about 22mph at the half a month earlier my average at IM was @ 17.3mph!!! Granted the course was a bit tougher and the weather was insane but I had figured 19mph as my worst case scenario. At any rate I was extremely conservative as my goal was just to finish my first IM, I even negative split my marathon by 10+ minutes but I still finished an hour slower than my anticipated worst case scenario . Anywho, I took two weeks off despite the fact that I didn't feel trashed at all after IM, and was motivated to train. After the two weeks off, I raced a really tough xterra. I was totally gone, I had no speed, no power and I walked portions of the run. Guys I might have beaten or finished near were now beating me by 15 minutes. I finished the series a couple of weeks ago with disappointing results. I am disappointed with my season because I finished Lake Placid in a rather pedestrian time (just under 12 1/2) and I failed to race as strongly as I would have liked in the xterra series. I feel that both my long and short races suffered as a result of each other. Next year my goals will be the same with the exception that I will try and 'race' the IM, so my question to you is how would you do it? Can anyone point out what I might have done wrong or what I can do to improve? Any thoughts? Anyone?
Thanks,
jadley

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [mostly fast] [ In reply to ]

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Tom Demerly

Sep 16, 03 10:12

Post #2 of 14 (2508 views)

This is a good question. An excellent one actually. My belief, and I hope some of you prove me wrong, is that if you want to have a good short-course/olympic season you can't have a good IM distance season. To be really good at IM distance and have your best race you have to focus on training that prepares you for 9.5-11.5 hours of continuous exercise. That is where I see most Ironman training plans go bad: They don't have long enough workouts to facilitate the physiological adaptation required for low to moderate intensity exercise for over 10 hours. This is the training principle of specificity. If you want to race 9.5-11.5 hour races, you have to do the training to get you through that. It seems to me, that is a completely different set of requirements than going 25 mph on the bike for 20 miles and getting off and trying to run 6:30 miles for 4-6 miles. I have never been good at both during the same season. The year I did Hawaii I had a mediocre (shitty) race at 12:24:36 (hey, it was 1986, we didn't even have aerobars yet!)but I had 9 age category wins in sprint to Olympic distance races out of 24 total triathlons. The year I did Canada the first time (1997) I went 10:43:? and finished super strong. I could have gone 10:30 easily. I felt like a million bucks after the race. That year all I did was long stuff. I think IM was the only race I did. I'm still looking for that perfect Ironman. I was entered in Wisconsin this year but didn't race (crappy year personally). I have since been pondering the best strategy for the upcoming years for putting together a good Ironman. Any thoughts?

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [mostly fast] [ In reply to ]

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muppet

Sep 16, 03 10:15

Post #3 of 14 (2504 views)

I haven't raced the IM distance, but here is something to think about: How much time have you dedicated to building your base? Perhapse you should consider spending more time on it. I wouldn't say sacrifice any other training, but you may want to start training earlier. I would think about 4 months MINIMUM for that type of distance. Then start worrying about speed. If you don't have a strong base, your results are going to be all over the place. Something I picked up from bike racing.... my $0.02

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Animal!!!

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [mostly fast] [ In reply to ]

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david

Sep 16, 03 10:32

Post #4 of 14 (2480 views)

Jadley,

We don't know your age or back round, but it sounds like you actually are burned out and are doing too much. The posts above seem correct also. I am the same age as Tom w/ similar # of wins and IM times. The truth is that other than the very rare person(Mark Allen or Erin Baker), you can't be at your best both long and short at the same time, or in the same season.

However, being good at short and long at the same time is different than being over trained or burned out. It think after your 1/2 IM you burned yourself out. Sort of obviously by what has happened since. BTW, I did it a number of times myself when I was younger.

I basically just try to maintain a level of fitness that has a moderate amount of distance and and a moderate amount of speed work. Then, I always try to be within a 6 week ramp up or so of being at 10.45 IM (plus or minus) OR a shot at an age group win at a local short course race. But, it is pretty hard to have multiple peaks or peak for both at the same time.

Good luck, and rest up!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [mostly fast] [ In reply to ]

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john

Sep 16, 03 10:50

Post #5 of 14 (2458 views)

Staying proficient at the short stuff while training and racing long is impossible for me. My advice is to plan your season around short stuff in the Spring and early Summer and then step up the mileage in the second part of the year for a Fall ironman.

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

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steveperx

Sep 16, 03 11:04

Post #6 of 14 (2444 views)

I agree with this, although I must admit I have no experience in this particular area, as I have only raced sprint and olympic distances. Generally speaking, I would think it would be very difficult to focus primarily short courses throughout the season and then expect to do well in a long course event, because you've been primarily training for short course races and have not built up the aerobic base needed for long course racing. Conversely, if you're shooting for doing well at IM and focus primarily on LSD training all season, then I would expect you won't do as well at the shorter distances, because you haven't been doing as much anaerobic training. That being said, depending on your current fitness level, I would think that you can still have a decent (although maybe not spectacular) season doing both short and long course racing.

You could try breaking up your season into two mini-seasons. For example, you could choose a late season long course race, such as IM Fla., and make that your long course "A" race, while focusing on short course racing early in the season (e.g., March-June). Along about July, you would switch to long course training, realizing that you've passed your short course peak, and that you do not expect to perform exceptionally well at any short course races after June.

With IM Fla. arriving in early November, you would have 16 weeks or so to build for the race. Once again, depending on your fitness level and how well you recover, I doubt you would be as well-conditioned for the IM as you would be if you dedicated the year to it, but I would think that for someone who has been racing for a few years, it is not unreasonable to think you can race and do well in both long and short course races if you train smart.

My $.02.

-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [john] [ In reply to ]

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muppet

Sep 16, 03 11:15

Post #7 of 14 (2429 views)

I'd actually switch it (crazy sounding I know). Spend the winter doing the long slower miles (while building base) and once the IM is out of the way, concentrate on speed for the shorter distance races.

I'm approaching the end of my rookie season here (one more race on Sunday). I decided to switch to tris from bike racing in July. Next year, I think I'm going to target a half IM early in the season, and spend the rest of the summer on Olys and sprints.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Animal!!!

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [muppet] [ In reply to ]

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john

Sep 16, 03 12:17

Post #8 of 14 (2372 views)

Getting your groove back after an IM can be very difficult. It's a lot different from a half-IM.

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

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Allan

Sep 16, 03 16:52

Post #9 of 14 (2268 views)

I'll second what Tom says. I don't believe you can be your best for both long and short races in the same season. Think of how many track runners you see trying to double in the 1500 and marathon at the world championships. The two events take very different training approaches just like IM vs. sprint tris. This year I have been getting ready to race IM Florida and have done virtually no speedwork at all. I've been logging a whole bunch of 20+ hour weeks and have managed two strong (4:21 and 4:20) half ironman races this summer. However, when I did a couple of short races as my token speedwork I just didn't have the top-end required to be as competitive as I like to be. My bike pace seems to be around 35-37 km/h no matter what distance I ride and my swim speed is the same for 100m as it is for 2k!

You can race both types in the same season but one will always suffer a little bit. Just make sure that you train for the type of race that is your "A" race for the year and treat the others as solid training days.

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [mostly fast] [ In reply to ]

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tri_yoda

Sep 16, 03 17:06

Post #10 of 14 (2265 views)

Don't get down on yourself. I am assuming the X-Terra you did after IM was Grafton Lakes. I wouldn't put any weight on that race since it was by far the most hellish I have ever done and I have done some tough X Terras. I was way slower than last year and was proud just to finish as that was one of only a handful of races I have ever considered dropping out of.

Anyway, about your real concern. Trying to race IM successfully and do short stuff may not be reasonable, unless you are one of a special few. I think it is possible to race up to half IM well and still do well at the Olympic and sprint distance, but as others have pointed out the full IM is a different animal. Some have suggested making 2 mini seasons, but I would say you cannot have everything, and if you don't focus at least a little bit you will only achieve mediocre resulsts.

I have yet to venture into the realm of a full IM, just because I like racing short. I figure I am slightly undertrained for the half, although I still managed to do well in my goal race for the season (4:47), but in great shape for Olympic and because I focus on speed, still have the top end running speed to do well in a Sprint.

I would also say not to be too disappointed. A 4:53 half and an IM finish is a fantastic accomplishment. I spent the last 3 years just to finally break 5 hours and I could not even imagine an IM at this point. I am sure you could attain your goals for either event, but just maybe not in the same season.

Do you live in upstate NY?

*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [Matt_Mallet] [ In reply to ]

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desert dude

Sep 16, 03 17:28

Post #11 of 14 (2252 views)

Some ideas:
race sprint and olys during the season, then go ride or run for a long bit after. for run speed if you need a long but want to keep leg speed, warm up by running 3-5miles to atrack do some 200-1km repeats w/running recoveries and put in 8-10 miles on the way home. Or do some threshold/tempo type work early in the run. Same on the bike. throw in some intervals after a couple of hours on the bike. While I think it possible to have a great short and long course season, I agree with previous posts that focusing on one then the other is the way to go.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Last edited by: desert dude: Sep 16, 03 17:31

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [mostly fast] [ In reply to ]

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cerveloguy

Sep 16, 03 21:52

Post #12 of 14 (2209 views)

I personally feel that unless you have exceptional genetics, it's very difficult to wear two hats. I watched an Oly on TV this summer in which Tim DeBoom was entered. I don't think he even finished in the top ten. Was he just not fast enough or was he just not racing long enough? Likely in a longer race he would have easily won against the same competition. Marathoners and sprinters don't compete against each other as each event is highly specialized.

You have to decide where you fit in and feel most comfortable. For me it's sprints/Olys. I'll never run an IM. It's not even on my agenda for the future. I could suffer thru the swim, the bike would be OK because I've done centuries before, but my running would suck. I had a running background a very long time ago in high school as a competitive 100 m sprinter. My long run was 200 m and I don't think I ever ran longer than 400 m in my life until I started doing tri. Never even ran at all for almost thirty years after I gave up high school track. For someone like me a 10 kms is my marathon. Besides, I've got a bum right knee that acts up with running but is unaffected by cycling.

Decide what you really enjoy, what you want out of tri and if you're best suited for long/short events. Just realize that if you try to do too much you'll burn out.

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

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canwi

Sep 16, 03 22:20

Post #13 of 14 (2208 views)

I do more speed work in the early part of the season and then concentrate on the big miles closer to the race, that way I'm maintaining my speed every year. I do running races and shorter tri's early on, while maintaining one long bike and long run a week, until later in the year I will start more long stead pace stuff. All year I do strides and bike races to maintain my speed even with my concentration being mostly on long steady state stuff. This doesn't necessarily work for the beginner triathlete, and I'm not recommending this for everyone, but if you have about 3-5 years experience you can maybe start looking at something like that? Once you have that base, the speed can be done earlier in the year.

I think the key thing is to maintain leg speed throughout the year with strides and hard group bike sessions or mt. bike races, etc...

I find I don't lose too much on the bike, but definitely lose some on the run when I am doing long course training.

Just my opinion

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Re: How do I race long but stay fast for the short stuff? [canwi] [ In reply to ]

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mostly fast

Sep 17, 03 7:26

Post #14 of 14 (2129 views)

I agree that in order to race at the higher levels in either discipline you probably need to focus exclusively on one or the other. However I am not in contention for the top spots in either long or short course (yet!). The issue for me wasn't so much that I was not performing optimally it was that there was an actual decrease in performance. I know from training on the IM course that I am capable of doing it in under 11hrs. The funny thing is that the splits I would need in order to break 11hrs. are not that much faster then my short course speeds after my 'crash'. My run splits for some 1/2 races were actually faster than some of my short course runs! Regardless of whether or not I'm burned out, that just seems weird although I guess I could chalk it up to harder courses, lack of anaerobic endurance and/or bad pacing.
I was aware of the need to prioritize going into my season this year and the long course was definitely my priority. My plan was to focus my training on IM, the only time I ever went anaerobic for any extended period of time was in the 4 or 5 races leading up to the IM. After the IM I thought I would have an awesome aerobic base and I could just pull the pin and rock the harder training, planning on a late Sept. peak�it didn't work.
For next year I was thinking about speed work early in the season as canwi mentioned, then ramping up my distance faster and closer to the IM. This year I started building my distance in early March, which was probably too early but as mentioned my goal was just to complete the race and I was scared at the prospect of having to tell the friends and family that I DNF, I definitely put in the miles. I figure that next year, I could build up my speed earlier on and then hope I manage to maintain it though the longer IM training starting maybe in May. Sound like a recipe for burnout or what?

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