All easy...see Barry P.


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=1612485

Let's presume you have a different plan in mind other than BarryP and LSD. I enjoy intensity in my workouts. We all can agree that there isn't just a one size fits all model and that many different methods of training work. So maybe I should have addressed the post as "for those who use intensity..."

The boys on The Brick Session say 80/20.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Thoughts on breakdown within that? So 80% is LSD stuff, no exceptions. 20% could be done however you please. Thresh/Tempo/etc within one run or spread out. Or I wonder if the intention is just one hard day, as opposed to harder segments worked into two runs.

There is no good answer to this because it depends on the rest of your training and how you respond to training. If you’re doing 20 miles running a week you can probably bump up the intensity quite a bit if your body and can handle it.

What type depends on what your body responds to best. McMillan hits on this in his book. If you’re someone who responds better to tempo vs interval do that, or visa versa. You’re limited in hours a week unless you’re a pro so you want to do what your body adapts to best.

Barry's plan doesn't END with LSD. Have you not read phase 2 and phase 3 of the plan? Yes, the cornerstone of the plan is volume, at moderate intensity. But, that is not ALL that there is too it.

The answer depends on the race you are training for, which is very clearly outlined in phase 3. What's your goal?

How do you want to define intensity? Everything greater than z1/2? only z4+? Do strides count? Tempo runs? Hill repeats?

The BarryP plan includes strides in all/most runs (maybe 5-10 minutes a day of 5k pace). And would include at least one tempo run per week starting in phase 2. A tempo run is 2/10ths of a week. I'd guess that comes close to the 20% per week, but I've never added it up like that.

There's a podcast on it that goes into detail. But they talk about key sessions within a week's training plan that you have to hit for a specific intensity...but then also talked about some clients they've had who would show up to the group workout and would only do that and don't get better because they are only doing the key session.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/80-20-training-ratio/id1196334770?i=1000412524915&mt=2


Personally I'd say it's pretty close, I'm currently self coaching and need to figure this out when I'm finally cleared to run again, after I survive my first 70.3 I'll be looking into coaching a lot to build out a better plan of attack.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I am doing one track session per week, approx 20% of distance. One long run about 25% of the distance at Z1/Z2 pace. Everything else at Z0/Z1 pace on the treadmill.

It is keeping me injury free so I am VERY pleased. Am making progress as well.

When I was coached, I saw a lot more of sprinkling of intensity in the various run workouts. I am sure there is a good reason for it, but for me, it adds complexity.

Hope this helps

As coming from a marathoner background, when I started triathlon, I found the mileage really low, because you were spending time split with bike/swim. 30mpw is a lot for a balanced triathlete doing something like a 30%/50%/20% SBR mix.

Interestingly, due to the low running volume, I've found that I have to be a lot more careful about the running speedwork. You can build up a big engine from bike and swim, but get yourself into trouble if you unleash that potential on the run to the point it exceeds your body's run beatdown tolerance. I never had this problem as a pure marathoner/runner - the run mileage beatdown itself would prevent me from overdoing the fast paced running, but as a triathlete, you can definitely run too fast and thus incur way too much injury risk for limited upside.

It's a challenge to find that sweet spot of risk/reward, but I'm def finding that I have to take it a lot easier on run workouts in general than I have in the past. Now when I do speed workouts further than a month out from the race, I'll pull the plug on the run intervals immediately if I feel undue musculoskeletal stress (like weird pains/aches), or slow the pace down if I feel anxious about how the beatdown is going to be.

Fortunately, you can get away with less run volume as a triathlete and still put up good race day runs. I'm definitely moving away from my old method of overprepare for the run (volume/intensity) and more toward doing the least amount of run training that I can to still put up a solid run that meets my expectations. I've unfortunately learned this the hard way after getting some mild strains and bone bruises that were ill-timed right in the middle of peak season

I run about 35-45 MPW average during middle of season. 1 track workout and 1 race pace workout usually tempo efforts. I try to get in at least 3 miles, but most times 4-5miles of actual track speed running, like 10 x 800m or (3x400m, 1200m)x3, and 20-40mins of tempo, the tempo run i often incorporate it in the long run to add race pace simulation, but also because I don't want to do 3 taxing runs in a week, track, tempo, long run, that way i can compress it into 2. While adding up the % of intensities, it does equate to about 20% of intensity, slightly more.

I have done a bunch of different run training philosophies over the years.

My best running was when I did every single run at Z1 pace.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

that 80/20 talk is about sessions. not distance or duration.

when you look at a distribution based on duration in each zone you often find anywhere from 3-7% being spent in a high intensity effort.

furthermore, there's a whole lotta YMMV here.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

My understanding that it was a given that if you were doing 80/20 it was relatively high volume. Doing 30km a week with 80/20 you'd be making very little progress I would have thought.

edited previous comment

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

You can get away with less run volume because you build up the run fitness through bike training? I do relatively high run volume and low bike volume. Had some OK results, but runs have generally been disappointing. Quickest I ran for a 70.3 was a 1.37. I was hoping for low 1.30s. Do you think working on bike volume and cutting down run volume won't adversely affect my run?

Understood on ymmv. But is there truth to mileage must be high to justify 80/20? And if it’s sessions and you’re running 6 days per week, that looks like one session of effort and maybe a tempo stint or something in a long run. So it’s really not much. In fact, by the logic that it’s sessions, the BarryP plan would surpass 80/20 when encouraging the 2 medium workouts be tempo/thresh efforts.

Really? There's an acronym for YMMY?? ICBTWALOFS

Normally Tuesday is the fast day, with Thursday fastish (but slower than Tuesday).

However the speed is the first thing I'll drop if I'm not feeling up for it.

Not getting injured, frequency & volume are as far as I can tell the most important things with running. The sprinkles of speed are fun, but they're a whole lot better atop a fat cake.

Depends on what you’re trying to do.

As a pure runner the barryp thing is nonesense. For a triathlete weak in running it makes sense.

So it depends.

For me, as a life runner, 2 hard sessions a week, a couple of maintenance pace which is like 40 seconds slower than marathon pace, and the rest easy.

Injuries seem to be something that get glossed over. I've seen so many people in my club and separate training squad as well as friends and friends of friends that have picked up injuries and 90% of the time it's because of fast paced interval stuff. The training squad I did, I reckon about 60% went into the 70.3 carrying injuries/niggles. The coach is a runner and had overweight, middle aged people doing multi-bricks, hill sprints, intervals etc calves were tearing left, right and centre. I think running is the sport with, arguably, the highest rate of injuries. And high intensity stuff is generally the culprit. The injuries don't tend to be particularly nice either. I had lots of injuries playing rugby, but a broken leg is healed in 6 weeks, stress fractures from fractured can keep you out for months.

The boring answer is that unless you are running high mileage it doesn't really matter what intensity you run at, you just have to log the miles. I would say you would get close to 90% of your potential from just running "easy" and closer to 95% with strides.
You really don't need much speed to be fast, you just need to learn how to be comfortable at a given pace, most people that do speed work are anyways doing it all wrong. They see that their coach told them to do 6x800 so they go as fast as they can for all of the reps and then wonder why they don't improve... High intensity work should mostly be focused on learning to become comfortable and therefore efficient at a given pace, being able to bang of a couple 60s laps isn't gonna do you no good when you are running 4h IM marathons, and speed is definitely not going to be the limiter when you want to break 3 or some other decent time.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Right. Same here. I would be very much bored if I'd do almost only Z1 runs, even though I know that it would probably be better for my race day performance. I add as much intensity as I can go intense and as long as I have enough time for becoming fresh again before the next training session.

First, define Intensity. Then it depends on many factors....

Total training volume
Run volume
What you're training for
Age
Recovery levels etc

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29 years and counting

The object of running 6X800 (with short rest) isn't to build speed, it's to raise abilities at VO2max.