Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
How Important Is A Pro Field
Quote | Reply
Hey ST,

How important is it to you that your IRONMAN/CHALLENGE event have a pro field?

I admit that I am a bit of a triathlon fanboy. Right when I was getting into the sport we had the Escape Triathlon come to Philadelphia and I rode my bike over to watch the pro fields come in and out of transition and then come into the finish. It was really awesome to see.

At my first Ironman event, 70.3 Raleigh, there was a pro men's and women's field and a pro panel was held. It was really interesting to hear them talk about tactics for the race. It was also really cool to be able to compare my times to their times to see just how much better they were on the same course on the same day.

The other side of it is the business side. I love watching my breakfast with bob profiles, training videos, highlight videos, etc. while doing a treadmill or trainer workout. It keeps me motivated. The businesses that sponsor these athletes get my attention and my dollars down the line. Also from a business perspective, I wish there were Super League Triathlon, ITU/WTS events accessible to Americans. Those events will always have pro's in the field and Super League in particular does a great job with athlete features on YouTube. I know Major League Triathlon is giving it a shot in the states but I am not sure if they allow age groupers to race the course after or before the pro teams race.

Anyway, I loved my experiences so much that I put preference on trying to register for races that contain a professional field.

Do not get me wrong, I still love the local races as social gatherings with the community you see on the roads while training over the course of the year.

Would love to know the thoughts of others.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
2021 IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship, St. George, Utah, USA 17-18 Sept. 2021 |--| IRONMAN LAKE PLACID 2021 |--| EAGLEMAN 70.3 2021
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Zero
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To quote the great Dean Wormer



Favorite Gear: Dimond | TriRig | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Last edited by: The GMAN: Dec 2, 20 9:03
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Anyway, I loved my experiences so much that I put preference on trying to register for races that contain a professional field.

And you would be an extreme outlier.
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Unless I was racing in the pro field, I couldn't care less about there being one in the races I sign up for. Seems most pro fields aside from championships are pretty watered down with B level pros making up 75%+ of the field, half these guys/girls get beat by AGers anyway.
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I mean it really depends on the audience. You have your sort of super fans in triathlon, many of us here for example, and you could just call these people fans. The problem is the numbers are so small. Sure you can put together a nicely produced condensed package on NBC with some "lifestyle" stories and more people watch it. But my quintessential example is sitting down in Clermont with an "instagram influencer" back in I think Feb, just for coffee. She is really really into triathlon, total narcissist. I named two pros, one male one female. I think I named Hoffman on the male side, and Angela Neath on the female side. She knew neither and has been in the sport for like at least 5 years.

I don't blame people and I am under no delusion. The interest in the sport is just small. At least here in the US.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't really consider it when registering for a race, but it has been cool at races when I've run by Jan Frodeno, Javier Gomez, Sebastian Kienle, or many other top athletes. I literally walked right into Crowie one time before the 70.3 WC in Vegas when it was dark before the race. Cool experiences, but I focus on my race. It is quite unique in triathlon in that we are on the same course at the same time as the top pros in the world. Obviously, money isn't remotely close to other top athletes in different sports, but it's still kind of cool to be out there with some of the best in the world.

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I like following pro races and rooting for certain pro's.

But it doesn't change anything for me. I do the races that I want to do and ones that work with my schedule.... with a pro field or not.

blog
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [hobbyjogger] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
hobbyjogger wrote:
Unless I was racing in the pro field, I couldn't care less about there being one in the races I sign up for. Seems most pro fields aside from championships are pretty watered down with B level pros making up 75%+ of the field, half these guys/girls get beat by AGers anyway.


This is not a fair statement to make. Racing out of a pro field is entirely different than AG field and requires a somewhat different skill set. Yes there are a couple pros that shouldn't be in the pro field but really it is few and far between. On the flip side there have been top-notch amatuers who abused the amatuer field every single time, turn pro, and then went back to the age-group field because they recognized it is a totally different game out of the pro wave.

I'm only discussing the male side, I can't speak to women's racing. But I can say this, the hardest ride in the last 10 years of my life was on my commuter (which I ride with male pros too), was with a top female pro. She would abuse any age-male except for a select few at the top of Kona. Total bad-ass on the bike.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Dec 2, 20 9:41
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The last year they had Escape Philly, I was lucky enough to have a transition slot on the row next to the pro rack. It was pretty neat putting faces to names and such, and seeing the gear they were using. But aside from that I was really just focused on my race.

Strava
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It is meaningful to me. I'd much rather do a 70.3 with pros. Schedule and location matter, but I will also aim for ones with pro fields. The atmosphere is just different!

I raced the AG race in Chicago 2014 when the regular WTS race was there, mainly because I wanted to see the ITU race and figured I would go ahead and race. I was fortunate enough to get a roll down for 2015 worlds there and really enjoyed both watching the championship race and seeing folks walking around.

I'm likely an outlier though.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I enjoy the additional energy that comes with having pros at a race. And that's pretty much it for me.

I don't think many people care very much right now about the pro racers. I can't quite explain all the reasons. I'm interested to see how the PTO grows and evolves.
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MI_Mumps wrote:
It is meaningful to me. I'd much rather do a 70.3 with pros. Schedule and location matter, but I will also aim for ones with pro fields. The atmosphere is just different!

I raced the AG race in Chicago 2014 when the regular WTS race was there, mainly because I wanted to see the ITU race and figured I would go ahead and race. I was fortunate enough to get a roll down for 2015 worlds there and really enjoyed both watching the championship race and seeing folks walking around.

I'm likely an outlier though.

Yeah, I totally expected people like us to be in the minority. It is just where our sport is. No glitz and glamour to be had, really. Its like nothing like the ability to sign up for a CAN-AM Hockey tournament with some buddies and look across the rink at the other "Adult League" team to realize they have two NHLers on that side. But still, you are on the same rink in the same way you are on the same course as the pros...and that is something that is really cool for some of us. In theory you are also competing against the pros in the same way as well. Sure, you didn't go off in the same wave and the experience is different. But you are able to beat some of those B tier and C tier triathlon elites in the same way you could score a goal while on the ice with Ryan Callahan trying to chase you down.

Maybe the difference is the individualism of triathlon compared to ice hockey. We all do get caught up in our own races, as we should. But we can still look over at Joe Gambles running on the IMLP course via present moment awareness and realize how cool that is.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
2021 IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship, St. George, Utah, USA 17-18 Sept. 2021 |--| IRONMAN LAKE PLACID 2021 |--| EAGLEMAN 70.3 2021
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [Miamiamy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Miamiamy wrote:
I enjoy the additional energy that comes with having pros at a race. And that's pretty much it for me.

I don't think many people care very much right now about the pro racers. I can't quite explain all the reasons. I'm interested to see how the PTO grows and evolves.

Yeah, maybe that is more my question. What is it that makes people not care right now but would make them care going forward.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
2021 IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship, St. George, Utah, USA 17-18 Sept. 2021 |--| IRONMAN LAKE PLACID 2021 |--| EAGLEMAN 70.3 2021
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The answer? It's not at all. Grassroots triathlon doesn't exist because there is a professional field. Most people who pick up triathlon in the US do it post college, similar to Rugby in the US. Triathlon is a mass participation sport and not a spectator sport. The spectators that are at races are mostly there to see their friends or loved ones compete/suffer. We can blame Ironman for this stuff, but this has nothing to do with Ironman and everything to do with general culture around the sport. At least in the US.

Mass Participation Events like Marathons really don't need a pro field to sell at all. Now, I'm on slowtwitch, so I'm clearly not the average triathlete. Everyone on here is not the average US triathlete. I'm a fan of the professional end of the sport because I do find their accomplishments and what they can do with their set of cards amazing. But does that cause me to register for a single race? No.

Now, I will say, a couple years ago it was really cool to get in the water in the same wave as Sebastian Kienle for Cactus Man when it was the week before St George.

Hooker training for the Sport of Scrum-Halves [Triathlon]
Last edited by: TheStroBro: Dec 2, 20 10:41
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
LifeTri wrote:
Miamiamy wrote:
I enjoy the additional energy that comes with having pros at a race. And that's pretty much it for me.

I don't think many people care very much right now about the pro racers. I can't quite explain all the reasons. I'm interested to see how the PTO grows and evolves.


Yeah, maybe that is more my question. What is it that makes people not care right now but would make them care going forward.

More empathy and less narcissism. As a whole triathletes are a pompous bunch.

I remember going to a Pigman race and this guy rolls up in the parking lot and start blasting his tunes out of his car. I also remember I was with an awesome and humble age-group dude who was a frequent poster here. He was meticulous, and loved to follow triathlon and knew everything about triathlon. Anyway, we kind of picked/punked this age-grouper who was all kitted out. I think he had a Ventum and we were asking all these dumb n00b questions and he just went on and on about "yah, I'm sponsored". I mean dude, your in your late 40s. Grow up. And no, you aren't sponsored in any meaningful way. This is the part of triathlon I do not like.

Do a sample size of pros with Ironman tattoo versus age-grouper and I think you will find that almost no pros have tattoos except for the select few who were to rise up into the pro ranks from super fan age-groupers. I wouldn't never get a tattoo for that matter, I don't care if you do, but it says something to tattoo a brand on your chest. For the record I try not to display a lot of brands in general in real life.

So the answer is getting people more interested in the sport and less interested in their own-self. That is a hard thing to do. Other than that you need to get mainstream viewership, but given the competition with so many other entertainment venues I just don't know if that is possible. You have to make it fun and exciting. Honestly, and sadly, if you made triathlon a contact sport where you can dunk people in the swim, stick metal rods thru the bike wheels on the bike, and deck people on the run. Without that I just don't see it. Sadly, we are a society addicted to action and stimulus.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
More empathy and less narcissism. As a whole triathletes are a pompous bunch.

I remember going to a Pigman race and this guy rolls up in the parking lot and start blasting his tunes out of his car. I also remember I was with an awesome and humble age-group dude who was a frequent poster here. He was meticulous, and loved to follow triathlon and knew everything about triathlon. Anyway, we kind of picked/punked this age-grouper who was all kitted out. I think he had a Ventum and we were asking all these dumb n00b questions and he just went on and on about "yah, I'm sponsored". I mean dude, your in your late 40s. Grow up. And no, you aren't sponsored in any meaningful way. This is the part of triathlon I do not like.

So, you're telling me that you were being a part of the problem?

Hooker training for the Sport of Scrum-Halves [Triathlon]
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I have been a serious masters triathlete for 10 years.

Without pro-triathlon-
I would probably have invested my time and money in masters swimming
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TheStroBro wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:

More empathy and less narcissism. As a whole triathletes are a pompous bunch.

I remember going to a Pigman race and this guy rolls up in the parking lot and start blasting his tunes out of his car. I also remember I was with an awesome and humble age-group dude who was a frequent poster here. He was meticulous, and loved to follow triathlon and knew everything about triathlon. Anyway, we kind of picked/punked this age-grouper who was all kitted out. I think he had a Ventum and we were asking all these dumb n00b questions and he just went on and on about "yah, I'm sponsored". I mean dude, your in your late 40s. Grow up. And no, you aren't sponsored in any meaningful way. This is the part of triathlon I do not like.


So, you're telling me that you were being a part of the problem?

You will have to be more specific on why I was part of the problem? As I am not following where you are going based on this quote but then again, I have total context and I realize much of context may be missing. However I am happy to expand that context for you.

Regardless that is neither here nor there and in some sense absolutely yes. One key difference, and it is a hard thing to communicate that selfishness is some sort of prerequisite to success at a higher-level. That shouldn't have to be an excuse but unfortunately it is a requirement. The difference is how you act in other areas of your life. Tangentially if I was the CEO of Delta I would be flying coach 50% of the time first class 50% because it is my job to understand the flying experience but also to display some humility. Not perfect by any stretch but I tried to be a little different and live triathlon within my own ethos and I am happy to expand on that.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Velocibuddha wrote:
I have been a serious masters triathlete for 10 years.

Without pro-triathlon-
I would probably have invested my time and money in masters swimming

And this is the chicken and the egg scenario. I went to school at Wisconsin and I can remember walking out in September and remember seeing these people doing this event (Ironman Wisconsin) and I had no idea really what it was about but I was introduced. The media and hype, introduces it to more people and pros and prize money bring more hype. If we look at triathlon and the propensity to be a part of a club or team and follow trends (ST tend to be less of this type IMHO) you can see that people, are trend-followers, momentum-followers etc and the things gain steam bringing in more people. Don't get me wrong, pros are important, but the specific pro (ie a Jan Frodeno, Sebastian Kienle) is less important. Of course announcing that we have the World Champion or Olympic Gold medal draws interest but again it is just for hype. It could be John Doe or Joe Schmoo for all that matter to the average person who doesn't follow the sport. This is why pros are only as good as their last race to some extent with the exception of those major titles... World Champion, Olympian, Olympic Medal.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't care that there are pros at races that I personally do. In the sense, that when I am racing I am focused on myself.

I care that there at pros doing some races when I am at home and there is a triathlon going on elsewhere. At that point what pros do at that race provides some entertainment (for me, I can get off on watching triathlon paint dry for 8-9 hrs).

Every sport needs "some" professional competition if not, it will never be an organized sport. If there is no professional competition at the every top then its just a bunch of people exercising. This is why elliptical training or recumbant stationary biking, or theraband resistance training is not a sport. its just exercise

We don't need professional competition at every event. Just some events where their competition sets some type of a top line bar for the rest of the sport in terms of what is in the realm of possibility for recreational people. Its less important that Kipchoge runs a 2:02 at Berlin than someone runs a 2:02 at the Berlin marathon. 2:02 become a bar of sort and whether you do it in 3:03 or 4:04 or 5:05, it provides some context of what humans are capable of and then from a mass participation it gives context making things a "sport" versus "execise".
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
I don't care that there are pros at races that I personally do. In the sense, that when I am racing I am focused on myself.

I care that there at pros doing some races when I am at home and there is a triathlon going on elsewhere. At that point what pros do at that race provides some entertainment (for me, I can get off on watching triathlon paint dry for 8-9 hrs).

Every sport needs "some" professional competition if not, it will never be an organized sport. If there is no professional competition at the every top then its just a bunch of people exercising. This is why elliptical training or recumbant stationary biking, or theraband resistance training is not a sport. its just exercise

We don't need professional competition at every event. Just some events where their competition sets some type of a top line bar for the rest of the sport in terms of what is in the realm of possibility for recreational people. Its less important that Kipchoge runs a 2:02 at Berlin than someone runs a 2:02 at the Berlin marathon. 2:02 become a bar of sort and whether you do it in 3:03 or 4:04 or 5:05, it provides some context of what humans are capable of and then from a mass participation it gives context making things a "sport" versus "execise".

I agree with this. The problem is all those little events want to grow into bigger events and hopefully the cities or communities recognize the value as well, and having a professional field does add some value to all those little events in terms of hype. There is a reason a class of pros should exist much like minor league baseball.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I don't care that there are pros at races that I personally do. In the sense, that when I am racing I am focused on myself.

I care that there at pros doing some races when I am at home and there is a triathlon going on elsewhere. At that point what pros do at that race provides some entertainment (for me, I can get off on watching triathlon paint dry for 8-9 hrs).

Every sport needs "some" professional competition if not, it will never be an organized sport. If there is no professional competition at the every top then its just a bunch of people exercising. This is why elliptical training or recumbant stationary biking, or theraband resistance training is not a sport. its just exercise

We don't need professional competition at every event. Just some events where their competition sets some type of a top line bar for the rest of the sport in terms of what is in the realm of possibility for recreational people. Its less important that Kipchoge runs a 2:02 at Berlin than someone runs a 2:02 at the Berlin marathon. 2:02 become a bar of sort and whether you do it in 3:03 or 4:04 or 5:05, it provides some context of what humans are capable of and then from a mass participation it gives context making things a "sport" versus "execise".


I agree with this. The problem is all those little events want to grow into bigger events and hopefully the cities or communities recognize the value as well, and having a professional field does add some value to all those little events in terms of hype. There is a reason a class of pros should exist much like minor league baseball.


I agree that there needs to be multiple tiers of pro athletes in every sport that is a sport, because having a pro competition makes a sport a sport (if not it is exercising) and there is no sport if you just have Lange and Frodo with no one else for them to beat up on at championship events. So you need cannonfodder pros (and this actually ends up including top guys like O'Donnell who have never one Kona....but they have been cannonfodder for Jan to beat up on....sorry if Tim is reading, its kind of reality) and Tim needs cannonfodder pros to beat up at IM Brazil, and then the 4th place guy at IM Brazil needs someone to beat up at the local 70.3 and the guy who comes 5th at the local 70.3 needs someone to beat up on at a regular regional race.

But to me as a fan, at some point, I just marginally care about the guy who was 15th at Kona who may have won an IM in Copenhagen or Barcelona, and I care even less about the 6th place person at Barcelona that he beat up on, and I can even less about that 6th place guy who won a local tri in Sevilla or Tallinn.

But yes, you need all these tiers of pros to have the top of the pyramid, the question are they fast hobbyists, or can they earn some kind of a living. Speaking fairly ruthlessly, age groupers don't care that the lower tier pros can earn a living from triathlon. Top tier pros need low tier pros to beat and low tier pros need to not work 60 hrs per week at Deloitte or as a waiter in a bar to compete with top tier pros.

Edit: I used Tim O'Donnell as an exteme example of someone that Jan needed in the field to defeat but homefully you got the angle there. With no one to beat, there is no competition
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Dec 2, 20 12:01
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I don't care that there are pros at races that I personally do. In the sense, that when I am racing I am focused on myself.


Edit: I used Tim O'Donnell as an exteme example of someone that Jan needed in the field to defeat but homefully you got the angle there. With no one to beat, there is no competition

No worries, I got what you meant. Tim is a great athlete, but I have said this many times, there are more talented athletes in the bike / run combo but are there never going to swim with Tim so it is non-discussion. I always tried to explain to pros coming up to pick races where they will be challenge but in the race. The race dynamics of triathlon are such that if you aren't there you aren't going to be in it. Obviously everyone needs experience and sometimes this isn't the case and you need to but there are a whole basket of decorated athletes that went out traveled and did just that. Found races that would challenge them but they could win.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: How Important Is A Pro Field [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not much to the AGers, but very important to the brands that sell Tri stuff.

Look at Canyon.

Without the massive sponsorship of pros, they would still be a niche brand.

Look at compression socks and any number of gimmicks we buy. Without pros we'd never take notice.

The pros are walking adverts. Hopefully they are well rewarded for it.

They're also super athletes and vastly underrated, which is a shame.
Last edited by: bluefever: Dec 2, 20 12:59
Quote Reply

Prev Next