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Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP
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Anyone make the switch and care to comment? Weight, cushing, drop 5mm vs 10, comfort etc.
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Post deleted by meronamkeithho [ In reply to ]
Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [meronamkeithho] [ In reply to ]
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I think the Hoka Cavu has a close feel to the Zoom Fly from reviews if you enjoy the feel of Hokas more. I haven’t actually tried the Zoom Fly personally though. But everything I’ve heard describes my experience in the Cavu though thus far.

Adam Feigh
Pianko Law, Speed Hound, Castelli, Sailfish, Base
Feighathlon.com
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [Joelbob] [ In reply to ]
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You need the Pegasus Turbo, coming out shortly...there are some reviews out there already.
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [Joelbob] [ In reply to ]
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I made this switch last year. I wore Hoka Claytons for a year and was concerned with the "10mm" drop, but after a few runs there wasn't any difference. I wore the SP's all year, but raced in the 4% (which are pretty different). In terms of being "Faster," the Nike's sure feel faster and you feel like you are propelling forward more. I had some good run times/splits with the Nike's and don't regret the move. The 4%'s are much more squishier than the firm SP's, but have more propulsion.
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [Joelbob] [ In reply to ]
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Went from Clifton 3 to zoom fly (haven't tried the SP), and got immediately faster. Like significantly faster, to the point where I almost feel like I'm cheating in them.
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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EnderWiggan wrote:
You need the Pegasus Turbo, coming out shortly...there are some reviews out there already.

Now I am really confused. What is the difference from the Pegasus Turbo vs the Zoom Fly?
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [Joelbob] [ In reply to ]
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The Pegasus Turbo aren't released until next month. These will be the second running shoe Nike has used with their ZoomX Foam technology. This was only found in the Vapor Fly 4%/Elite previously. Design wise it's just a Pegasus "platform" with new foam. ZoomX is one of Nike's next generation foams and is the future for the brand. It replaces their dated Air Zoom/Cushlon combo foam (which is what the regular Pegasus comes with). It's firmer and more responsive (in theory) than Air Zoom that it's replacing and when compared to React, their new plush foam technology.

The ZoomFly uses Lunarlon, the outgoing foam technology Nike's replaced with ZoomX. Lunarlon was the soft squishy foam in their lineup. The Zoom Fly also has the carbon composite plate in the sole which is meant to promote a quicker toe off and energy return. This plate is not found in the Pegasus or Pegasus Turbo models.

React + ZoomX foams are probably what we'll see for the next 5-10 years out of Nike's product line (at least for runners).





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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"
Last edited by: PushThePace: Jul 18, 18 12:17
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [Joelbob] [ In reply to ]
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I train in the Clifton and race in the zoom fly, and it wasn’t a big deal, for me. I feel way faster in the zoom fly, can’t wait to race in the 4% in 2 weeks.
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [PushThePace] [ In reply to ]
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Great break down of Nike. We’ll probably see a much larger push through the line with React foam since it’s much easier to produce and fits more the need/wants of the runners today. I’m going to use the generic term on the Vapor Fly foam, pbax. The advanced concept teams at most of the big brands have been trying to create pbax molded foam for years. Reebok had a running shoe out with it a year before the Nike Vapor Fly and the Floatride came out at the same time as the Vapor Fly. The newest Floatride reviewed by Runner’s World has many of the same characteristics as the Pegasus Turbo. I tell you this because the race is on.

1. We are seeing brands engineer shoes to compete against the qualities of Hoka. The Epic React had Hoka on their mind. Just look at the early markeitng they did. The New Balance Beacon has many of the characteristics of the original Clifton. The Clifton was a Hoka designed Kinvara and the Beacon looks and feels like a cross between the Kinvara and the Clifton.
2. We are seeing brands now using the BASF foam first developed on Boost. Saucony has it, Brooks has it, and Altra has it.
3. There are reports now that Hoka and possibly Brooks have a carbon plate.
4. If Nike and Reebok through their advanced development capabilities can perfect the production of the pbax midsole (The reason the Vapor Fly is hard to get is partly marketing but more has to do what the difficulty of production using pbax) we’ll see other brands pick it up.

My work shows a fairly large shift happening. To the original question my data says, use the Clifton for most of your training. Use the Vapor Fly SP or Vapor Fly 4% on your faster run days and in your race.

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dave, love your YouTube videos and insights on shoes. Your review of the Zoom Fly makes me want to try them out. I’m currently running in the React and loving the combination of cushioning and responsiveness. Then the Pegasus Turbo comes out and throws a monkey wrench into my plans. That said the cost looks to be $240 Cdn which just seems crazy to me...my question to you is are the Zoon Flys worth losing cushioning if the React? Is the trade off worth it?

SDJ wrote:
Great break down of Nike. We’ll probably see a much larger push through the line with React foam since it’s much easier to produce and fits more the need/wants of the runners today. I’m going to use the generic term on the Vapor Fly foam, pbax. The advanced concept teams at most of the big brands have been trying to create pbax molded foam for years. Reebok had a running shoe out with it a year before the Nike Vapor Fly and the Floatride came out at the same time as the Vapor Fly. The newest Floatride reviewed by Runner’s World has many of the same characteristics as the Pegasus Turbo. I tell you this because the race is on.

1. We are seeing brands engineer shoes to compete against the qualities of Hoka. The Epic React had Hoka on their mind. Just look at the early markeitng they did. The New Balance Beacon has many of the characteristics of the original Clifton. The Clifton was a Hoka designed Kinvara and the Beacon looks and feels like a cross between the Kinvara and the Clifton.
2. We are seeing brands now using the BASF foam first developed on Boost. Saucony has it, Brooks has it, and Altra has it.
3. There are reports now that Hoka and possibly Brooks have a carbon plate.
4. If Nike and Reebok through their advanced development capabilities can perfect the production of the pbax midsole (The reason the Vapor Fly is hard to get is partly marketing but more has to do what the difficulty of production using pbax) we’ll see other brands pick it up.

My work shows a fairly large shift happening. To the original question my data says, use the Clifton for most of your training. Use the Vapor Fly SP or Vapor Fly 4% on your faster run days and in your race.
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the comments and feedback.

Zoom Fly vs Epic React

I would use the two shoes in rotation. The Epic React is your best friend. You can count on it when you are running long, you can count on it when your legs just don’t have it.

The Zoom Fly is your TT Bike. You don’t pull it out every day but when you do you just want to go. There is absolutely no doubt you’ll feel faster in the Zoom Fly. It’s a completely different feel then the Epic React. The Zoom Fly has a firmer ride, hugs your foot especially through the arch and it’s lighter.

After running in both for a number of miles the Epic React is much more durable. The cushioning holds up really well. When the cushioning goes on the Zoom Fly it’s gone. The shoe gets really soft and loses the fast feel.

The Pegasus Turbo is an interesting shoe. I can’t determine if Nike is really trying to commercialize the Pbax foam or if they are saying “Look at what we can do”. They’ve done a great deal of the latter in their history. The Pbax foam has some really unique properties but I think the Epic React is a better value right now. It will last a long time and Nike is committed fully to that shoe, they spent $50 million to launch it.

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dave, exactly what I thought. It’s my understanding that the Pegasus Turbo was Kipchoge training shoe, and the 4% was his race shoe. The majority of his miles were in the Turbo and is a do it all shoe.
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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Is there much difference between the zoom fly and the zoom fly SP? My local store only has the Zoom Fly.
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [PushThePace] [ In reply to ]
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Actually they are dropping tomorrow if you’re a Nike plus member. I’ll be ordering tomorrow.

PushThePace wrote:
The Pegasus Turbo aren't released until next month. These will be the second running shoe Nike has used with their ZoomX Foam technology. This was only found in the Vapor Fly 4%/Elite previously. Design wise it's just a Pegasus "platform" with new foam. ZoomX is one of Nike's next generation foams and is the future for the brand. It replaces their dated Air Zoom/Cushlon combo foam (which is what the regular Pegasus comes with). It's firmer and more responsive (in theory) than Air Zoom that it's replacing and when compared to React, their new plush foam technology.

The ZoomFly uses Lunarlon, the outgoing foam technology Nike's replaced with ZoomX. Lunarlon was the soft squishy foam in their lineup. The Zoom Fly also has the carbon composite plate in the sole which is meant to promote a quicker toe off and energy return. This plate is not found in the Pegasus or Pegasus Turbo models.

React + ZoomX foams are probably what we'll see for the next 5-10 years out of Nike's product line (at least for runners).




Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [mdtrihard] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I think the soles are just the same but the upper is different. I can't run in the ZF as the heel eats my heel/achilles. Just bought the SP's and so far, so good.
I really liked the Epic React for slower runs as well, but the transition from the sole to the upper also ate my heel/achilles :(
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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My work shows a fairly large shift happening. To the original question my data says, use the Clifton for most of your training. Use the Vapor Fly SP or Vapor Fly 4% on your faster run days and in your race.[/quote]



I like this combo/direction but Dave how do you think the Turbo Pegasus fits into this? Sounds like it is softer and more durable without the plate. Does that mean with no plate not as fast?
Last edited by: Joelbob: Jul 19, 18 8:09
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [Joelbob] [ In reply to ]
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I haven’t tried the Pegasus Turbo so understand that with the comment below.

I think the Pegasus Turbo and Clifton are probably close to a wash. The Clifton does it with a thick EVA based midsole and other design features. The Pegasus Turbo does it with the pbax midsole. The pbax will give you the same relative compression (protection between foot and ground) as the much thicker Clifton. The pbax is a much more durable midsole and it’s much more alive than the EVA based foam.

The Vapor Fly is a completely different shoe. It will simply feel faster.

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [mdtrihard] [ In reply to ]
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There is a big difference and it’s really up to you.

Midsole - Zoom Fly is Lunarlon or EVA based foam. The 4% and SP are pbax - The pbax will feel alive, the Lunarlon does not.

Upper - Zoom Fly is fliyknit with Flywire - More secure fit through the midfoot, slightly more structure in the toe box. The 4% and SP simply have much less structure.

Results - I don’t know anyone that has used both and preferred the Zoom Fly over the 4%.

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [Joelbob] [ In reply to ]
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This was interesting reading regarding the Zoom Fly 4%

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/18/upshot/nike-vaporfly-shoe-strava.html

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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I have used both and preferred the Fly.

The 4% felt very unstable to me. The arch cuts pretty far into the middle of the foot (and I do not have wide feet). It made me feel like I was coming over the side of the arch support. For me, I Couldn't comfortably run in them. I prefer the fit in the fly (and the fly sp)... The 4% was definitely springier... and I loved that , but didn't love the run.

Just grabbed a pair of the Pegasus turbo's which seem like they will be solid.
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [dcohen24] [ In reply to ]
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That’s great to hear.

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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btw, I expect this to not be the case.

Im not sure if you have run in a set of Epic React's yet, but:

Normal foam is generally returning about 60% energy
react foam is around 70%
ZoomX is closer to 85%

(when you factor in the rubber on the bottom of the shoe, on a shoe like the peg or react, it drops the effective energy return about 10% from some non-nike studies I've seen)

All that said, the react definitely feels like a fast shoe.. And Im expecting the pegasus to be more bouncy and alive then the react .
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [dcohen24] [ In reply to ]
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dcohen24 wrote:

Just grabbed a pair of the Pegasus turbo's which seem like they will be solid.

Same #cantwait - although I had to go a half size up b/c I was a little late in the ordering game...friggin work
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Re: Hoka Clifton to Nike Zoom Fly SP [btmoney] [ In reply to ]
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if you haven't run in the peg 35s, its a tight toebox... so you might not be terribly dissapointed up a half size
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