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High speed wobble -- any help?
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Hi all,

I have to start this by saying I'm a relatively new rider, so I don't have a lot of experience riding at high speed. Part of me wonders if this is just nerves, or if there's something really wrong that I need to fix, or if this is just how the bike behaves and I have to get used to it. Anyway, here's the story.

Today I took my relatively new bike (Giant TCR2 aero with less than 400 miles on it) up route 9W to Nyack for the first time. Nice ride, lots of rolling hills. On many of the downhills, when I really got cooking the bike seemed to wobble under me, to the point where I was nervous about falling or veering into traffic. It felt like I was riding in an erratic cross-wind. After the first two or three big downhills I was nervous enough that I felt like I had to brake and keep my speed down. I was a little more comfortable on the hoods than in the drops, but there was no way I was going to ride the aerobars.

I stopped and checked to see if anything obvious was wrong: the tires seemed OK, wheels were true, valves were sticking straight out, and the brakes weren't rubbing. I had pumped up the tires before I left to about 105 psi - the tires say "100 recommended, 125 max." - and they still felt pretty hard. Just checked everything out again at home and all looks OK. No bumps in the tires that I can detect with my eye or my fingers.

So I guess I'm wondering: is it just me being nervous about going fast, or is it likely that there really is a wobble? My bike computer says my max speed was 37 mph, which is about 10 mph faster than I've gone on the short downhill on my normal park loop. I guess I've felt a little wobble on the downhill in the park also, but that hill is pretty short so I just dismissed it. Could the speed really be generating enough air turbulence around the wheel to create the feel of a cross wind? If there really is a wobble, is there anything I can do about it? Anything else on the bike that I should check?

One thought I have is that the tires are pretty narrow and have very little tread -- 700x23 Hutchinson Carbon Comps. My previous bike had 700x28s and tread that you could see. (Which by the way made that bike a lot easier to ride in the rain.) Seems to me that wider tires might give a more stable ride, but that doesn't explain why the bike would feel unstable with the stock tires.

Thanks for any helps and advice you have to offer!

Lee
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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These might be helpful:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/geometry.html#Anchor-14210

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/maintenance/shimmy.html

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/descending.html

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/maintenance/smooth.html
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds like what you've experienced is the dreaded "speed wobble," aka, the "death wobble." There's really no way to avoid the wobble short of staying under the high speeds at which it occurs.

There are, however, ways to deal with the wobble when you get one. The technique that's worked for me is: 1) hold on tight, 2) pray, 3) squeeze the top tube between your knees, and 4) GENTLY apply the brakes. They key act is to squeeze the top tube between your knees, and keep squeezing until you slow way down, because the mass of your body will prevent the bike from wobbling. Let go too soon, and the wobble will come right back.



__________________________________________________
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell
Last edited by: GJB: Jun 29, 03 0:53
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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Check your headset. If it is loose it can allow a minor thing turn into a scary ride. Had it happen to me last year. In my case the whole headset had to be replaced. Corrosive sweat did me in. Same bike I have gone over 50 mph w/ no problems. Even though the bike maybe new, if the headset didn't seat correctly or needs to be tightened problem is there.
Larry

Larry

Don't be afraid to ride too long or too hard. That's what cell phones are for. Rich Strauss
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [letter] [ In reply to ]
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Squeezing the top tube with your knees will usually help. Adding some rake to your fork should help and check your headset. Are your wheels true?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like headset to me too. You may want to have it checked by your LBS.
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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I have the exact same bike and have had the same experience. My previous bike was an older heavier (non aero) frame and I don't recall experiencing this. I don't think it is too bad anymore, but I'd be curious to hear if you find out if it caused by the headset. Maybe I have got used to it or maybe it was something in my learning curve of the new bike but I don't notice it anymore or at least I don't fear for my life.

Great bike though! I love my TCR aero.
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [JayR] [ In reply to ]
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Could be.....



Do you have any of them giant ass reflectors in your wheel? Could be out of balance if you do (I have seen that before).

Or, it is your headset..integrated I bet....

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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Quick update on this thread.

I took my bike into the shop today. They couldn't find anything really wrong with it, although they said that the headset might be "too tight". I haven't the foggiest idea what that really means. Is there some kind of torque limit on the headset that might have been exceeded when the bike was assembled? And is the bike tech *really* going to check that kind of thing? And would a tight headset really cause a wobble? No clue. I do see something in my bike repair manual that says that a headset that's too tight can make the bike difficult to ride no-handed, so maybe there's something to their answer.

Anyway, I waited about 25 minutes while they worked on it, then spent another half-hour having my fit adjusted. It was pretty wrong -- poorly done by the first guy. So the upshot is that the bike is a lot more comfortable to ride now. I'll see how it does at high speed on my next long ride, probably early next week.

Thanks to everyone for your advice!

Lee
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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Too tight a headset is pretty easy to feel. Basically, a headset should be tight enough that you can grab the bars and pull/push forward/backward on them without feeling the steerer tube slopping around in the head tube. It should be loose enough, however, that if you grab the bike by the back of the saddle and lift it so the front wheel is hanging down, then push the front wheel to one side it should swing back and forth a couple of times and come to rest pointing straight. If it doesn't swing back and forth a couple of times or if it does not come to rest pointing straight the headset is too tight. You can feel this as resistance to turning the handlebars. This would affect no-hands steering because you are relying in minute shifts in body weight to make minute steering changes, but if the headset is tight the steering won't respond that cleanly. Headset tightness is easily adjusted with the bolt in the top cap of the steerer tube, though you have to loosen the stem-to-steerer bolts first.

Not sure how any of this would cause a high speed wobble with hands on the bar, but it's possible, I suppose.
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]
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To loose will cause a shimmy - to tight...um....if that is what they said.

I am curious, if this is a threadless headset....how did they get it to tight?

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: High speed wobble -- any help? [lsilverman] [ In reply to ]
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I bet this has nothing to do with the bike at all, but the rider - I speak from experience. I have a hand-made italian racing bike, the same bike that some pros rode in Europe in the 2001 season. It is truly an excellent bicycle, but the minute I get on it, the quality of the bike declines dramatically.

I tend to be a control freak on my bike, especially when I go down hill. Because of this, I try to brake and steer the bike in to doing what I want it to do - this often results in a terrifying shimmy at exactly the wrong time.

What I should do is relax and let the bike do it's thing - it is far better at descending than I am. When I relax my grip, lay off the brakes and focus on leaning in to corners rather than steering in to them, the bike goes much faster and there is zero shimmy. Of course, it is easy for me to say, but has taken me a while to put it in to practice. I have improved my descending significantly, but I still have a ways to go. One of my training buddies has the exact same bike, but has no problems descending at 45+. I may beat him to the top of a hill, but he will always beat me to the bottom.
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