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Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup.
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Given the choice between a Dugast Latex Pista Silk Tubular Tire, Vittoria Pista Speed or Challenge Pista Seta Ultra (maybe something else that I have yet to discover). What would be the fastest tire for double Zipp 900 discs on the boards of the Stubhub Center velodrome? The equipment that I have sorted out is listed in black, everything in red is currently nothing more than brainstorming.

I’m playing with the idea of taking on elite track nationals in July, more specifically the individual pursuit.Thankfully, I still have some incredible equipment laying around, just waiting for an opportunity to go fast again. I would shoot for 4:25 (~54.34 kph). The reason that I’m playing with this idea is that at the ripe age of 26, I keep finding watts to put into the pedals but I have no desire to mix it up on the road again. Zwift is currently filling that competitive void, but want more (without jogging and floating). I’m currently 67 kg and have been been pushing 460-465 watts for 4:30 in my living room. I know the track is much different than a trainer, unfortunately the nearest velodrome that I know of is 5+ hours away. Thanks for your help!

Frame: Cervelo T4
Aero bar: ???
-Extensions: ?Zipp vuka evo 110mm?
Bottom Bracket: ???
Chainring: ?aerocoach 58 or 60?
Chain 3/32: ?PremierBike?
Cog: ?EAI Gold (14t)?
Crank:?Rotor flow?
Pedals: Speedplay Aero Ti
Saddle: Fizik Arione Tri
Front wheel: Zipp 900 disc tubular
Front tire: ?19-23mm?
Rear wheel: Zipp 900 disc tubular
Rear tire: ?23-25mm?

Helmet: ?Use the GF's Poc Cerebel even though its too big for my head?
UCI legal Skinsuit: ?BioRacer Speedconcept TT?
Shoes: Specialized Sub-6
Socks: Monton - 19cm tall aero special

Last edited by: Ohio_Roadie: Nov 5, 18 13:53
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Re: Fastest track tire [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Forget the Vittoria - I have had three of these puncture over the years, once is ok, shit happens but x3 is not just bad luck!
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Re: Fastest track tire [cgrubb] [ In reply to ]
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Tire wise I see a lot of FMB and Dugast at the World Cup/ World Championship level races. Silk is expensive, but they ride like silk, trust me on that one. The super quality pista silk and cotton tires do not do well on pavement, tried that a few times in TTs, bad idea. Good luck.
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Vittoria’s are fine in our experience and what we recommend for our wheels, on a Zipp 900 front you need the 19mm for aerodynamics so Pista Speed 19 is an easy choice. You could go for Pista Evo CS 19 if you can find one as they’re a bit more puncture proof and the Crr is still good (but not as good as the Pista Evo CL/Pista Speed).

Rear tyre you might as well put a 19 on as well, you don’t need the comfort of a 23 and the Zipps are just a bit too narrow to get away with the aero penalty so if you have the choice I’d run 19/19.

Are you doing your efforts on a trainer in the aero position? You need to take a few watts off for pursuit just because of the effect of the bankings, and the start effort will kill your cruising speed. I’d ignore what the predictions give you and try and get am actual pursuit done as early as you can (even given the location constraints) to give you more of a picture of what you need to work on between now and then.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Hello

Individual Pursuit (IP) is equipment, but more important fitness and technique

1) Equipment :

if you have Cervelo T4 at the right size, and double track Zipp disk, you have 90% of it.

For the rest : crankset Sugino or Rotor, ...you will need several gear set up (52, 53, 54, ...)x(14,15,16...) to adjust and find your RPM/pace
Helmet, will depend on your position
Speedsuit : in France, in offical competition, you need to use your club set. So, choose a club supplying one piece club set, a club with a good team track ?

2) Fitness :

I doubt you will go to 4'25" on 4km.
This is World Champ timing : https://www.tissottiming.com/...trwch/fr-fr/Default/
Marco Coledan is a 80kg+ pro, IP and TP specialist, not the best, but still... 4mn27s
If you keep 460w for 4mn30, probably your PMA is slightly below that (you probably put your anaerobic reserve in also), but you need to work also anaerobic, as standing start will need a 1000w+ peak to launch, hopefully short but still leaving a bit lactate left (the lesser the better), and lactate resistance capacity will be key to your perf (especially last km).
You can mix z6 work (km work) with classic z5 work, not forgetting the 80% of below/at sweetspot

3) Technique :
you need to work how to follow the black line, including in the banking, not easy
you need to work the standing start, at race gear, feasible alone from very slow speed, of with assistance from real stop

and you need to work pacing, because no power meter info allowed during the race (generally Garmin/SRM installed behind saddle for post-analysis). Either you have someone giving timing info each lap, or handle it alone. In any case you must work this, to be able to handle this alone... as the coach on the track side doesn't know how you lactate level is going within your muscles :-)

You can train in a 3 or 4% ramp, with near standing start, then 5mn run, in aero position (Tri bike, with UCI compatible fit, I guess) at constant gear (depending on ramp), trying to get stabilized pace (power wise) without looking at the info, to get use to your SENSATIONS, and find the appropriate cadence, generally around 110 RPM.

Once this established (real power curve, most efficient cadence), you will be able to somewhat evaluate your real "flat" power and speed, and anticipate the gear you could use on the track.

IP is great (TP also), but real difficult technically.
Last edited by: Pyrenean Wolf: Nov 6, 18 5:45
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Re: Fastest track tire [G-man] [ In reply to ]
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Another option amongst frames. I have a ‘16 Shiv TT which can also be used for this. Even though I won’t be trimming off the FD or RD hangers like Specialized athletes have had done for their hour record attempts on this bike. Not sure the aero difference between the two frames, but the T4 might still win out here.

G-man wrote:
Tire wise I see a lot of FMB and Dugast at the World Cup/ World Championship level races. Silk is expensive, but they ride like silk, trust me on that one. The super quality pista silk and cotton tires do not do well on pavement, tried that a few times in TTs, bad idea. Good luck.

Thanks! I have an connection with Challenge so they are looking into that but from what I’ve found it’s a toss up between FMB and Dugast. Unless is find better info, I’ll go with whatever is cheaper or easiest to acquire.

Xavier wrote:
Are you doing your efforts on a trainer in the aero position? You need to take a few watts off for pursuit just because of the effect of the bankings, and the start effort will kill your cruising speed. I’d ignore what the predictions give you and try and get am actual pursuit done as early as you can (even given the location constraints) to give you more of a picture of what you need to work on between now and then.

It’s been a few years but I did a some track racing growing up and through college. Fastest I’ve gone for 4km is 4:41, at MTV in Indy, which is outdoor and concrete. I’ve gotten a bit faster since then and will have the ability to focus on this so I expect to smash that time regardless.

I’m currently about 10-15 watts short while in aero on the TT bike. I have a bit of ground to make up here but spending the time in aero over the next several months should help close that gap.

Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Hello

Individual Pursuit (IP) is equipment, but more important fitness and technique

1) Equipment :

if you have Cervelo T4 at the right size, and double track Zipp disk, you have 90% of it.

For the rest : crankset Sugino or Rotor, ...you will need several gear set up (52, 53, 54, ...)x(14,15,16...) to adjust and find your RPM/pace
Helmet, will depend on your position
Speedsuit : in France, in offical competition, you need to use your club set. So, choose a club supplying one piece club set, a club with a good team track ?

2) Fitness :

I doubt you will go to 4'25" on 4km.
This is World Champ timing : https://www.tissottiming.com/...trwch/fr-fr/Default/
Marco Coledan is a 80kg+ pro, IP and TP specialist, not the best, but still... 4mn27s
If you keep 460w for 4mn30, probably your PMA is slightly below that (you probably put your anaerobic reserve in also), but you need to work also anaerobic, as standing start will need a 1000w+ peak to launch, hopefully short but still leaving a bit lactate left (the lesser the better), and lactate resistance capacity will be key to your perf (especially last km).
You can mix z6 work (km work) with classic z5 work, not forgetting the 80% of below/at sweetspot

3) Technique :
you need to work how to follow the black line, including in the banking, not easy
you need to work the standing start, at race gear, feasible alone from very slow speed, of with assistance from real stop

and you need to work pacing, because no power meter info allowed during the race (generally Garmin/SRM installed behind saddle for post-analysis). Either you have someone giving timing info each lap, or handle it alone. In any case you must work this, to be able to handle this alone... as the coach on the track side doesn't know how you lactate level is going within your muscles :-)

You can train in a 3 or 4% ramp, with near standing start, then 5mn run, in aero position (Tri bike, with UCI compatible fit, I guess) at constant gear (depending on ramp), trying to get stabilized pace (power wise) without looking at the info, to get use to your SENSATIONS, and find the appropriate cadence, generally around 110 RPM.

Once this established (real power curve, most efficient cadence), you will be able to somewhat evaluate your real "flat" power and speed, and anticipate the gear you could use on the track.

IP is great (TP also), but real difficult technically.


Firstly, thank you for your input.


1. Thankfully all of my aero has been UCI compliant since I was 17, so business as usual on that front.

I currently have up to a 51-56 in my track sack, but was thinking about adding a 62-63 with a couple bigger cogs. At 67-68 KG I don’t think I need the 1/8th chain but that is what my current equipment is, so I’ll probably stick with that unless the 3/32nd gear is any faster. Nopinz currently has a deal going for tripsuits (on eBay) and BioRacer speedconcept suits. I’m leaning towards the XS BioRacer suit but this is another relatively unknown guess for me. I would love to get some time with Jim from ERO to do some testing. I think this will be a huge step in the right direction.

2. While 4:25 is my goal, to equal or best that would be a track record, from my research, I’m not sure if I can hit that mark but I’m willing to try! Even if I do, there is a realistic chance that it will not be good enough as my fellow American, Ashton Lambie, just pulled off an amazing ride with the new unofficial world record (4:07) in Mexico.

Looking at the data that I can find and knowing what sort of pain that I can put myself into currently, I’m in the ball park of a 1000w start, maybe edging closer to 1100w if I’m on a good day, I now have to get that tied into the remaining 4+ minutes.

3. My track craft is lacking and rusty at best. I have also never ridden the LA track, so I really need some track time there. I’ve ridden a small variety of American tracks so i’ll need to learn that track and brush the rust off. I’m not worried about riding to a schedule with a coach, It’s been a while but I’ve been there enough times in the past. I remember those sensations, and I’ll need the very best sensations, the legs and the lucky to have a crack at this.

I have 165 crank on the TT bike and usually avg 105-110 rpm depending on the TT course so I’m not worried about the cadence as much as the start. I will be shooting for a cadence of 110-115 and peaking around 120. I have a bit of gym and glute work to get that big gear up to speed.

I’ve loved the IP and the TP in my collegiate days. I hope to find the love again for the pain required for the IP. At this point, I don’t see the ability to give the required effort for a proper TP, so I won’t let my mind get any crazy ideas about that.

Thanks again everyone! Cheers!
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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19mm pista speed G+ front, maybe a wider one on the back.

I lose a lot of power from the trainer to the 3-4k (also live 4-5 hours from nearest track) if you've had experience in the past it might not be as bad. Same with the black line and the start... practice as much as possible between now and then.

Per Alex Simmons pursuit chart, with a CdA of .2 and 460w you should hit 4:26 (in good conditions) Good Luck

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Here is what I know:


Aero bar: ??? Pretty individualized depending on if you like a big drop for the basebar and want to run a "mantis" position
-Extensions: ?Zipp vuka evo 110mm?
Bottom Bracket: ??? Go ceramic with no seals on race day and minimal lube, will be somewhat dictated by crankset
Chainring: ?aerocoach 58 or 60? you want to run big/big, specific gearing will depend on you... DA aero or ZEN would be my choice
Chain 3/32: ?PremierBike? 3/32 is fine, will limit your front CR options. Regina Extra is one of the fastest 3/32 track chains, Izumi makes a 3/32 but is very hard to find - and it's very fast
Cog: ?EAI Gold (14t)? EIA gold only available in 1/8... they have a Delux Steel in 3/32 and is probably the best bet. DA in 3/32 is very good as well.
Crank:?Rotor flow? SRM or Rotor would be fine. Depending on crank it will dictate the BB you can use.
Pedals: Speedplay Aero Ti
Saddle: Fizik Arione Tri
Front wheel: Zipp 900 disc tubular
Front tire: ?19-23mm? Dugast pink 19
Rear wheel: Zipp 900 disc tubular
Rear tire: ?23-25mm? Dugast pink 22

Helmet: ?Use the GF's Poc Cerebel even though its too big for my head?
UCI legal Skinsuit: ?BioRacer Speedconcept TT? Vie13 coated or Bioracer
Shoes: Specialized Sub-6
Socks: Monton - 19cm tall aero special

___________________________________________________
To go faster than ever before, visit: https://squareup.com/...mic-high-performance
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Also, 4:25 at Velo Sport Center is VERY fast, Ashton Lambie (current WR holder in the IP) rode back to back 4:27's in qualifying and the finals for the win this year. Currently Bartko holds the track record of 4:25.8 at the VSC.

I am hopeful you can ride in that range as USA could use another FAST endurance rider to bolster our Team Pursuit.

___________________________________________________
To go faster than ever before, visit: https://squareup.com/...mic-high-performance
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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I will make a different prediction for time

Over 5mn max effort, generally aerobic power is 80%, while ATP-PCr is 2% and Glycolysis 18% (approximatively...)
If you sustain 460w for 4mn30s, I will consider your aerobic power is around 370w.
Generally 7% of all power is used on kinetic (the launch), so 427w left for stable speed. With optimal use of anaerobic capacity (over 370w).
Let`s consider you can deliver 410w on a stable basis after the start, as you are not "experienced".

CdA : for 67kg, IP UCI, average is around 0.19 or .195

Stable speed : 53km/h as no altitude, and track not that fast apparently

My guess for 4km time : 4mn 38s
Last edited by: Pyrenean Wolf: Nov 8, 18 7:09
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
Vittoria’s are fine in our experience and what we recommend for our wheels, on a Zipp 900 front you need the 19mm for aerodynamics so Pista Speed 19 is an easy choice. You could go for Pista Evo CS 19 if you can find one as they’re a bit more puncture proof and the Crr is still good (but not as good as the Pista Evo CL/Pista Speed).

Rear tyre you might as well put a 19 on as well, you don’t need the comfort of a 23 and the Zipps are just a bit too narrow to get away with the aero penalty so if you have the choice I’d run 19/19.

Are you doing your efforts on a trainer in the aero position? You need to take a few watts off for pursuit just because of the effect of the bankings, and the start effort will kill your cruising speed. I’d ignore what the predictions give you and try and get am actual pursuit done as early as you can (even given the location constraints) to give you more of a picture of what you need to work on between now and then.

I have a Pista EVO CS 19 brand new if anybody needs that (for sale). Not to hijack the thread.

Carry on!
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Regarding Tires, at Masters Worlds, there were quite a few riders that were having 'grip' issues with their tires. Lots of folks sliding off the track. I would recommend that if Elites were a goal, you should plan on going out to at least one of their LAVRA events this winter/spring.

And just as a heads up, you will probably need to get with Travis to get a 'orientation' set up before you can train on the track.

db
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Dbeitel] [ In reply to ]
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Dbeitel wrote:
And just as a heads up, you will probably need to get with Travis to get a 'orientation' set up before you can train on the track.

This is true! When I went there last September to do TP training before master's worlds and they made me take the orientation class. It didn't matter that I had won a number of master's track titles, including a few on the Frisco, TX track, or that I had recently set records in Aguascalientes. The only thing that would have allowed me to avoid that class would have been if I had competed on another track like theirs (Manchester was mentioned).

I still have my certificate. :-)



Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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I think you will find that it is going to take a LOT of work on the track to put out the power you are quoting while racing on the track AND keeping a good aero position. Putting all of those things together on a 250 track at speed is not trivial. If you put in all of that hard work on Major Taylor or in T-Town that will be helpful, but then you'll still have another learning curve when you go to a steep wood indoor 250m track.

As for the equipment, the T4 is a fast pursuit bike. I've been using a Shiv for IP and TP and I'd think that the T4 is faster with a good set of aero bars on it. I'm sure that there are slightly faster frames, but it's pretty hard to go wrong with that. Rotor makes 144 bcd 3/32 track chain rings.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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I was under the impression that they all had to accept your certification from any recognized track? Interesting, how will that work with Master's Nats? A lot of folk taking an intro class the day before?

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Personally the biggest helper would be do some specific training on the track. Things like flying race pace efforts etc to kind of get a feel for it. Its one thing to do power on the trainer or even road then it is to do it on the track with the turns and banking. I know this because i fell into that trap before, not enough track prep. But it is something that is able to be improved thankfully. Hope all goes well and don't hesitate to ask me any questions if you need.

Lucas Hoffman
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
I was under the impression that they all had to accept your certification from any recognized track? Interesting, how will that work with Master's Nats? A lot of folk taking an intro class the day before?

It seemed fairly fluid to me. Maybe if my experience in Frisco had been in the last year or so instead of 1999 they might have relented, or if my time in Aguascalientes had been mass start racing and not just riding around in circles by myself. It also probably didn't help that not to long before I was there another Hellyerite had blustered his way into group training and slid off the track, taking a few people out. I kind of went full asshole (nicely) with the "do you know who I am kind of crap" and they didn't care. Cat 1 since 1996, Olympic trials bronze TP, 11 national titles, 2 world records, blah, blah, blah. The only concession was that they let me train that day with the caveat that I would take the next class which was the next day.

All that said, the class wasn't a waste, I did get some insight that was helpful.

As for Master's Natz next year? I know that for Worlds in 2017 there was a lot of information on the web site about being certified, and they had some sessions for it in the days leading up to the start of racing, but I didn't see it on the web site this year. Also, maybe they look at somebody coming down there to race differently than somebody coming down to do a training session. Also, maybe the fact that the UCI or USA Cycling is running the racing sessions vs. Velo Sports Center running training sessions makes a difference?

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Help wanted: ISO Fastest pursuit setup. [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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Looking back at it, I do find it puzzling that there was not the big issue of 'getting certified' this year like there was in 2017. I did not make the trip in 2017, in part, because I did not have the time to go early. I specifically went down in April to get that box checked.

In hindsight, I am very glad I made the trip, because it is a different track to ride.
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