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Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned
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These shoes are certainly getting a lot of attention on ST and in the endurance sport communities more broadly. There are some folks here that are pretty vocal about them being unfair (even calling people who own them cheaters) and calling for their ban.

I’ve used them over the last year and have “fallen in love” with them. I’m definitely faster and my legs feel a ton better on longer runs, especially the day or two after. I’m 62 and given how bad my knee is, this is almost like a miracle for me and has definitely extended my IM career...for at least one more year anyways.

So, I run in them because they give me a clear advantage vs the other shoe (Hoka Clayton) I was wearing. Before that, I chose the Clayton because I thought it gave me an advantage over the Sauconys I was wearing. In fact I’ve always tried to wear the shoes that help me the most.

I don’t think this advantage is unfair because anyone can buy them. Yes $250 is a lot of money but if that’s the hurdle, shouldn’t tri bikes or wheel sets, or helmets that cost a bunch be banned as well?

It makes me faster. It is better for my body/health. It’s relatively affordable (given how much triathlon costs to participate in). Any one can get them.

Why should they be banned?

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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My argument is that if a competitive sport requires equipment that equipment should be defined and have broad limits. At the moment, in running, those limits are subjective.

Nike has just forced the issue where we need to move from subjective to objective limits. Specific, measurable numbers so we all know where we stand.

Exactly where the line are drawn is another matter. I personally think the Alphaflys are a step too far. If the governing body decides the line to draw includes or excludes the existing Vaporflys I'm not overly bothered one way or another.

TLDR personally I am not asking your shoes to be banned, I want regulations to put limits on the extremes of shoes.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Other than the fact that Nike is raping everyone on the price of the shoes I think they are just fine.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. I don't see how they are any different then slapping a disc wheel on your tri bike and magically shaving off time from your IM ride.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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People (amateurs) are cheap and pissed they have to spend $250 to compete. But you don't have to, just like you don't have to buy a P5X (at 40x the price of next%).

Pros that aren't Nike are pissed because they have to choose between having to compete in disadvantaged gear or getting their shoe sponsor paycheck. But all that should level out over time as the other companies catch up.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
People (amateurs) are cheap and pissed they have to spend $250 to compete. But you don't have to, just like you don't have to buy a P5X (at 40x the price of next%).

Pros that aren't Nike are pissed because they have to choose between having to compete in disadvantaged gear or getting their shoe sponsor paycheck. But all that should level out over time as the other companies catch up.


Agreed. I think this is just a rare case where one company was light years ahead of the competition with their innovation. I ran in the Hoka Carbon X and now have the next%...not even worth a comparison, and that's including the $70 difference in price.

Blog: https://davidkoppeltriathlon.blogspot.com/
Coaching: https://dkendurance.com/
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
These shoes are certainly getting a lot of attention on ST and in the endurance sport communities more broadly. There are some folks here that are pretty vocal about them being unfair (even calling people who own them cheaters) and calling for their ban.

I’ve used them over the last year and have “fallen in love” with them. I’m definitely faster and my legs feel a ton better on longer runs, especially the day or two after. I’m 62 and given how bad my knee is, this is almost like a miracle for me and has definitely extended my IM career...for at least one more year anyways.

So, I run in them because they give me a clear advantage vs the other shoe (Hoka Clayton) I was wearing. Before that, I chose the Clayton because I thought it gave me an advantage over the Sauconys I was wearing. In fact I’ve always tried to wear the shoes that help me the most.

I don’t think this advantage is unfair because anyone can buy them. Yes $250 is a lot of money but if that’s the hurdle, shouldn’t tri bikes or wheel sets, or helmets that cost a bunch be banned as well?

It makes me faster. It is better for my body/health. It’s relatively affordable (given how much triathlon costs to participate in). Any one can get them.

Why should they be banned?

yea, i don't get it either. nike makes the best shoes on the market, period.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Its too bad there isn't already a thread on the front page discussing the vaporfly and reasons for (not for) banning the shoe...Oh wait....

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=7127132#p7127132
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Tom: I read that thread and wanted to hear the reasons people have for wanting them banned (because I didn't really understand the logic). In the thread your mentioned and in others, people expressed strong opinions about banning them but often without their reasoning, so I wanted to learn more.

Thanks for pointing out the thread though and I appreciate the nice way you did as well....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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In the specific post I linked, I think that UKGear provides the most succint, rational characterization of the concern....and both sides of the coin, so to speak.

Quote:
...and I appreciate the nice...

Well, I was clearly being a smartass. But, I'm not often downright mean.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Jan 15, 20 7:50
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Honest question: Are you compensated in any way by Nike?
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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x3. I don’t get the difference between buying these versus the fastest bike. I haven’t done the math, but I would think they probably offer one of the best speed upgrades/$ in triathlon.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I doubt these shoes will be banned by IM or USAT because spending $ to gain speed is ingrained in triathlon culture, for better or worse. I imagine they could possibly be banned by ITU if World Athletics banned them.

I don't think spending $ to gain speed is as ingrained in running culture, so I understand more pushback there regarding these shoes.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jan 15, 20 9:35
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
me the most.

I don’t think this advantage is unfair because anyone can buy them. Yes $250 is a lot of money but if that’s the hurdle, shouldn’t tri bikes or wheel sets, or helmets that cost a bunch be banned as well?



Why should they be banned?

Tri bikes are banned in ITU. Tired of this triathlon comparison done by IronBrand racers
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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There is a lot that happens between your legs exerting force and that force being transferred to speed on a bike. The bike is a tool and an integral part of cycling. So if you can make your tool lighter, more aero, etc., I think that’s fair game.

Running speed is a function of how hard you can push your legs and lungs. There’s not a “tool” like a bike is in cycling. Prior to the VF, my thoughts on shoes were to get ones that you can run in that don’t hurt your feet, are as light as possible while still offering cushion and support (aka, don’t hurt my feet), and are easy in transition. The idea that shoes can make you faster is a bit troublesome. Again, if a shoe is designed to spring you forward to propel you faster, to me that’s different than buying a helmet that will have less drag.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [TJP_SBR] [ In reply to ]
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TJP_SBR wrote:
There is a lot that happens between your legs exerting force and that force being transferred to speed on a bike. The bike is a tool and an integral part of cycling. So if you can make your tool lighter, more aero, etc., I think that’s fair game.

Running speed is a function of how hard you can push your legs and lungs. There’s not a “tool” like a bike is in cycling. Prior to the VF, my thoughts on shoes were to get ones that you can run in that don’t hurt your feet, are as light as possible while still offering cushion and support (aka, don’t hurt my feet), and are easy in transition. The idea that shoes can make you faster is a bit troublesome. Again, if a shoe is designed to spring you forward to propel you faster, to me that’s different than buying a helmet that will have less drag.

I agree with this. Running and swimming would be done naked, if possible. But, that is not possible so shoes and swimsuits are necessary evils. But those necessary evils should not be, as you say, tools or otherwise performance determiners. I agree, the bike is different.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [TJ56] [ In reply to ]
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TJ56--I am not compensated in any way by Nike--and if you knew me you wouldn't be able to ask that question with a straight face! (Nike wouldn't want an old slug like me, especially given how bad a runner I am now--if anything they should pay me to NOT run in their shoes!).

Strangely enough though, I am an old friend of the new CEO! with that relationship and $250 I can get my next Next!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [TJP_SBR] [ In reply to ]
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Good points--thanks for your comments.

I might differ a bit. All shoes are in some way influencing injury protection and running efficiency. The Next shoes leave my legs feeling better than others I've tried, which I think is good. They are light, which is better than heavy and they don't dissipate as much energy as some other shoes (the "spring" effect still returns less than 100%) so they seem like they are more efficient.

All of these strike me as differences in degree rather than a difference in kind.

That said, I wasn't in favor of banning the water rover nor the faster swim skins a few years back. To me faster is better, and if you can buy one piece of equipment that's faster than another, and everyone has that choice then why not?

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
These shoes are certainly getting a lot of attention on ST and in the endurance sport communities more broadly. There are some folks here that are pretty vocal about them being unfair (even calling people who own them cheaters) and calling for their ban.

I’ve used them over the last year and have “fallen in love” with them. I’m definitely faster and my legs feel a ton better on longer runs, especially the day or two after. I’m 62 and given how bad my knee is, this is almost like a miracle for me and has definitely extended my IM career...for at least one more year anyways.

So, I run in them because they give me a clear advantage vs the other shoe (Hoka Clayton) I was wearing. Before that, I chose the Clayton because I thought it gave me an advantage over the Sauconys I was wearing. In fact I’ve always tried to wear the shoes that help me the most.

I don’t think this advantage is unfair because anyone can buy them. Yes $250 is a lot of money but if that’s the hurdle, shouldn’t tri bikes or wheel sets, or helmets that cost a bunch be banned as well?

It makes me faster. It is better for my body/health. It’s relatively affordable (given how much triathlon costs to participate in). Any one can get them.

Why should they be banned?

I see a reason for banning them from IAAF running competition (minor version of Oscar Pistorius spring effect) because year over year records should ideally be comparable in a sport like running (or swimming). In triathlon that involves cycling and weird distances, transitions etc, comparing times is meaningless, so it should not really matter.

These shoes should be fine for training, just like water running or ellipticals or anti gravity treadmills are. Triathlon allowed weird shaped bikes that were not double diamond when UCI banned them, so even if IAAF bans the shoes, there is zero reason why triathlon should ban them. $250 as you said is nothing compared to the rest of the equipment. Minimally a second hand tri bike is $500 on ebay which is more than $250 running shoes, so we can't pretend that economic access is an issue when we have bike gear as part of the picture.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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IAAF Rule 143(2):

Athletes may compete barefoot or with footwear on one or both feet. The purpose of shoes for competition is to give protection and
stability to the feet and a firm grip on the ground. Such shoes, however, must not be constructed so as to give athletes any unfair assistance or advantage. Any type of shoe used must be reasonably available to all in the spirit of the universality of athletics.

IAAF Rule 143(6):

Athletes may not use any appliance, either inside or outside the shoe, which will have the effect of increasing the thickness of the sole above the permitted maximum, or which can give the wearer any advantage which he would not obtain from the type of shoe described in the previous paragraphs.

The question becomes under the first whether or not the real-world savings of the Vaporfly line runs afoul of the "unfair assistance or advantage" provision. The question under the second specifically underlines whether the carbon span would be banned, as the shoe without it might not run afoul of the guidelines.

Do I think that for those of us in triathlon there will ever be a ban on them? Probably not. Nor will it impact most recreational runs. Just a matter of whether they'll get banned at the professional level.

----------------------------------
Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:


1) I see a reason for banning them from IAAF running competition (minor version of Oscar Pistorius spring effect)

2) because year over year records should ideally be comparable in a sport like running (or swimming).


1) These shoes don't provide quite the same kind of effect that Pistorius had.
(Note: Either way, Pistorius performance had nothing to do with springs. I was part of a research team that looked at this and we proposed it was him harnessing the natural oscillation of the composite legs coupled with his step rate, running speed and the total mass of the system (a bit like how you gain height when bouncing on a trampoline). It only works on a double amputee and only when at a pre-determined steady-state speed. It actually works against you during other parts of a race. It's why Pistorius in particular had a poor start at certain parts of his career (with a fast finish) or a decent start (then not a great finish). His legs were changed in their design over his career and tailored to the part of the race that offered him the greatest benefit.)

So then, are these shoes advantageous ? Yes, absolutely. Every published study that has investigated them (3 or 4 of them I recall) supports a variety of gains and mainly centres on improvements in running economy. Bear in mind that these ignored the ethical debates though (which are arguably as valid).

2) Sadly, this is actually neither true in either swimming or running. The sports may look historically the same aesthetically but both sports have seen technological changes in the past that ended such comparisons. 'Fast pool' design for swimming being one and different running surfaces on athletics tracks for running being another. Plus, when you actually look at the changes in performance in a sport over something like 50 years, the introduction of these shoes in terms of results isn't half as outrageous as the media makes it out to be.

By the way, if anyone is interested in the many issues that can be caused by such products, check out one of my past journal papers on the topic. It's open access and free for you to see it here:

https://springerplus.springeropen.com/...86/s40064-015-1331-x
Last edited by: UK Gearmuncher: Jan 15, 20 11:27
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Disagree. VFs are sneakers, like a disc wheel is a bike wheel. If it is 100% about a level playing field in terms of gear, no bike should be objectively faster than any other bike.

Btw - are goggles acceptable?
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [Tri.Tony] [ In reply to ]
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You are misunderstanding. I do not believe that sneakers are like a disc wheel.

Biking requires a tool. A bike.
Rowing requires a tool. A scull.

By design such sports are man + equipment. Optimizing the equipment is part of the sport.

A competition to determine how fast a human can run or swim is different. The test is a human, not a human and a tool. The fact that shoes are necessary (though Abebe Bikila and Zola Budd may disagree) and swimsuits and goggles are necessary (though old timers remember when swim races used to be in the nude) do not change that these necessary evils should be neutral and not provide an advantage.

If you think that shoes are equipment that can be optimized to performance advantage without constraint then you believe the same for the hydrophobic swimsuits that smashed all records. I say that both of these are different than sports where the tool is part of the sport itself, like bike racing and rowing.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [Tri.Tony] [ In reply to ]
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Tri.Tony wrote:
If it is 100% about a level playing field in terms of gear,

That's not what it's about. It's just about keeping the playing field from getting out of control. E.g. in bikes, I can't bring a fully-faired recumbent to even an IM race, that's probably a good thing. And in rowing I can't use sliding riggers, which would fundamentally change the technical nature of that sport.

Even the wildest non-UCI-legal tri bikes are pretty far from the extreme of what technology could do.

That said, I don't know about about the Nike shoe issue to have an opinion.
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Re: Help me understand why the Nike 4%/Next shoes should be banned [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I think we are saying almost the same thing. The first part of my original post is that the nike sneaker is still a sneaker.

I agree there are and should be limits. Better sneakers are good for everyone (another side of less fatigue may be some degree of injury prevention).
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