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Help me understand bike fit
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So i had a bikefit 3 years ago, on a retul mûve bike, and based on that the bike fitter advised what bikes i should look for.
The stats were:
Height 6f4', (194 cm),
Stack: 590-606
Reach: 430-445
Eff saddletube angle 78 degrees.

Based on these stats he went to: https://www.slowtwitch.com/stackreach/index.php
And looked up and what would fit, essentially being Felt B series, Shiv and Scott plasma.
I went with a Felt, and everything has been fine (though i feel like the aerobars are a bit too short). I am now looking into getting a new bike, and have a hard time understanding these fit coordinates, and if I am limiting myself too much by these numbers.
So what should i look for when buying a new bike?
Also the above fit, was maybe more of an ENTRY level fit in triathlon, if i wanted a more aggressive bike fit, would i still be looking for same stack/reach numbers?

Is there a more updated database with stack/reach measurements of different bikes?
Are there diff stack/reach numbers?
For example if i go to Canyon webpage their size L says: arm pad reach 498 - 572* and arm pad stack 628 - 681. So what is the difference between with and without "arm pad", and what should i look for when finding a bike?
This page: https://geometrygeeks.bike/bike/canyon-speedmax-cf-slx-9-0-2017/ list the normal stack reach of the speedmax and based on that it would be a bad fit due to reach being too "long", is that correctly interpreted? Seeing that the reach it too "long" even on the small frame, i think i must be misinterpreting the data in some way.
Last edited by: lassekk: Nov 17, 18 1:56
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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I think your confusion stems from conflating Frame Stack and Reach with Pad X,Y. Pad X,Y is sometimes referred to as pad stack and reach, and even occasionally as just stack and reach. Both refernces are bad ideas.

Same concept and both use the center of bottom bracket for one point. Frame S&R uses the middle of the top of the headtube for the 2nd point while Pad X,Y uses either the center or back of the elbow rest (pad removed) for the 2nd point. There are good arguments for back of the rest, but most are still using the center. So Pad X,Y numbers are going to be longer and taller than Frame S&R numbers. The pad numbers are going to be far more relevant to your fit, and most intelligent tri bike manufacturers are publishing some type of Pad X,Y adjustment range for their bikes.

Pad X,Y makes bike selection almost plug and play, excepting the choice of a particular size when your Pad #s fit multiple sizes.

Your position could be recreated and the proper Pad X,Y measurements taken. That would be my advice. Your fitter could recreate the position, measure to the pads, and email you the #s and some bikes that would work in about 10:00 of their time.
Last edited by: FindinFreestyle: Nov 17, 18 12:19
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
I think your confusion stems from conflating Frame Stack and Reach with Pad X,Y. Pad X,Y is sometimes referred to as pad stack and reach, and even occasionally as just stack and reach. Both refernces are bad ideas.

Same concept and both use the center of bottom bracket for one point. Frame S&R uses the middle of the top of the headtube for the 2nd point while Pad X,Y uses either the center or back of the elbow rest (pad removed) for the 2nd point. There are good arguments for back of the rest, but most are still using the center. So Pad X,Y numbers are going to be longer and taller than Frame S&R numbers. The pad numbers are going to be far more relevant to your fit, and most intelligent tri bike manufacturers are publishing some type of Pad X,Y adjustment range for their bikes.

Pad X,Y makes bike selection almost plug and play, excepting the choice of a particular size when your Pad #s fit multiple sizes.

Your position could be recreated and the proper Pad X,Y measurements taken. That would be my advice. Your fitter could recreate the position, measure to the pads, and email you the #s and some bikes that would work in about 10:00 of their time.


Thanks for taking the time to answer!
I have attached the fit report. Which of these measurements are the ones i should use to compare to what the companies have?
I feel like so many different numbers are thrown out on the different companies websites.
E.g. canyons number are very different from some of theo thers.
Last edited by: lassekk: Nov 21, 18 3:35
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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You mention your stack is 590-606, but the fit report shows pad y to 714mm. That's the number that really matters.

Also... when looking at your fit report, you have a saddle tilt of -7 degrees. Thats huge. And when a saddle is tilted that far down, it usually means your fit is less than stellar. Before buying a new bike, I would suggest revisiting your fit.

blog
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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lassekk wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to answer!
I have attached the fit report. Which of these measurements are the ones i should use to compare to what the companies have?
I feel like so many different numbers are thrown out on the different companies websites.
E.g. canyons number are very different from some of theo thers.
Ideally you'd use Pad Stack from BB and Pad Reach from BB, but due to a number of reasons, bike brands don't offer that information.

Assuming your fit is good (a picture would help of you on the bike), there's no great mystery that you need a really big bike with a saddle height of 862 mm. I'm concerned that your fit is a little too much on the narrow side, and there may be room for improvement in stretching you out or bringing you a bit forward. But I don't think that will negatively impact your bike shopping.

I've attached the first page of the fit report we generate using armpad geometry that may be of help.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
You mention your stack is 590-606, but the fit report shows pad y to 714mm. That's the number that really matters.

Also... when looking at your fit report, you have a saddle tilt of -7 degrees. Thats huge. And when a saddle is tilted that far down, it usually means your fit is less than stellar. Before buying a new bike, I would suggest revisiting your fit.


Is it, because that is where i lose the overview? Because there is NO bike with stack above 610. So if i needed 714 that would be impossible to find. Just browsing, BMC, Cervelo, Felt, Shiv, all their stack numbers are in the (for XL/61 bike) 570-610 range. So if the 714 mm is the number i should use to find a new bike, i feel that would be impossible/it is not the right number to be looking for?

For point nr 2: I get the point, and i know it is pointed downwards, but i would have believed 2-3 degrees max. When you say revisiting, do you mean get a completely new fit, on a muve bike and use those coordinates to find a new proper bike?

The reach and stack that the bike companies list are:
445/565 trek speed concept
445/590 Shiv
430/600 Plasma
435/553 BMC
445/572 IA FRD
So all of those are very far from the 700 number, but closer to the 600 number he gave me back then
Last edited by: lassekk: Nov 21, 18 6:00
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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lassekk wrote:
stevej wrote:
You mention your stack is 590-606, but the fit report shows pad y to 714mm. That's the number that really matters.

Also... when looking at your fit report, you have a saddle tilt of -7 degrees. Thats huge. And when a saddle is tilted that far down, it usually means your fit is less than stellar. Before buying a new bike, I would suggest revisiting your fit.


Is it, because that is where i lose the overview? Because there is NO bike with stack above 610. So if i needed 714 that would be impossible to find. Just browsing, BMC, Cervelo, Felt, Shiv, all their stack numbers are in the (for XL/61 bike) 570-610 range. So if the 714 mm is the number i should use to find a new bike, i feel that would be impossible/it is not the right number to be looking for?

For point nr 2: I get the point, and i know it is pointed downwards, but i would have believed 2-3 degrees max. When you say revisiting, do you mean get a completely new fit, on a muve bike and use those coordinates to find a new proper bike?

The reach and stack that the bike companies list are:
445/565 trek speed concept
445/590 Shiv
430/600 Plasma
435/553 BMC
445/572 IA FRD
So all of those are very far from the 700 number, but closer to the 600 number he gave me back then

Those reach and stack numbers you are listing are frame reach and stack. Those are the numbers from the bb to the steerer tube. What matters is pad y and pad x which is bb to aerobar pad which is the 714mm listed in your fit sheet.

Frame reach and stack are somewhat meaningless when talking about TT fits. But some mfg's don't list the pad y and pad x (trek, felt, scott, and canyon do). So you have to do math when you add in the basebar and pads when using frame reach/stack.

A large or XL speed concept can reach that stack of 714 mm.... https://docplayer.net/...ncept-fit-guide.html

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Re: Help me understand bike fit [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Those are frame geometries you are seeing, not the armpad position that stevej was pointing out. See the report in my attachment.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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trentnix wrote:
lassekk wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to answer!
I have attached the fit report. Which of these measurements are the ones i should use to compare to what the companies have?
I feel like so many different numbers are thrown out on the different companies websites.
E.g. canyons number are very different from some of theo thers.
Ideally you'd use Pad Stack from BB and Pad Reach from BB, but due to a number of reasons, bike brands don't offer that information.

Assuming your fit is good (a picture would help of you on the bike), there's no great mystery that you need a really big bike with a saddle height of 862 mm. I'm concerned that your fit is a little too much on the narrow side, and there may be room for improvement in stretching you out or bringing you a bit forward. But I don't think that will negatively impact your bike shopping.

I've attached the first page of the fit report we generate using armpad geometry that may be of help.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer, so it is not just me going crazy! (In that the companies do not give the pad reach/stack).
I really agree with you on the narrow side, that is what I'm feeling too when riding (kinda of pushing my butt backwards a bit to be able to make my self longer/lower, that combined with my aerobars, which I think are just not long enough for my forearms.
I have attached the picture after being fitted on my current B14 size 61. I have a picture from the muve fit which i for unknown reasons cannot acces from here but will upload later.
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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That fit is t bad at all, but I’d definitely stretch you out a few more cm.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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lassekk wrote:
I have a picture from the muve fit which i for unknown reasons cannot acces from here but will upload later.

Position looks fair, but your face looks terrible in this pic.
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [vjohn] [ In reply to ]
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Hi all and thanks for all the helpfull messeages!

I just have a few more questions i hope you could assist with:
1) Was it an error that my fitter provided me with frame stack/reach for finding a new bike (should it have been pad x/y), or was he just trying to make life "easier" for me?
2) Arm pad stack BB is in the 700 range, am i correct, assuming the arm pad X (reach) is the Arm Pad Reach BB: 478 mm (for attached picture, muve fit file)?
3) The real fit and muve fit has some difference in the numbers, are these the adaptations you would expect or have I been fitted far from muve fit? Muve:725/478, Felt: 714/432 (attached is muve fit numbers and picture of that position)
4: The muve fit says i should be on 172,5 cranks but they are 175 on my Felt, is that an issue?
5: Just wanted to say thank you for taking your time answering all my stupid question :)

One side note: The cnayon speedmax can not accomodate my stack. But i fint it wierd that even the Size small has too much reach, how does that make any sense?
Last edited by: lassekk: Nov 22, 18 2:00
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [vjohn] [ In reply to ]
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vjohn wrote:
lassekk wrote:
I have a picture from the muve fit which i for unknown reasons cannot acces from here but will upload later.


Position looks fair, but your face looks terrible in this pic.

Thanks, and thanks i guess, haha ;)
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Your fitter should have told you the exact bike, in the exact size, with the exact stem and spacer configuration, with the exact base bar, and the exact pads and extensions, in their exact configuration, with the exact angles, to meet your position.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Are you basing your changes off of a fit 3 years ago? If so, has your hip flexor range improved? You should have your bike refit. Get some newer physical assessment numbers then go from there.

Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
Your fitter should have told you the exact bike, in the exact size, with the exact stem and spacer configuration, with the exact base bar, and the exact pads and extensions, in their exact configuration, with the exact angles, to meet your position.

Hi Eric, he did tell me bike and size (felt size 61 /scott plasma size x/shiv XL). But not all the other numbers, but i guess i would have had little use for those as it was a muve fit and he would dial in everything for me afterwards?

The issue is more now, that i might want to upgrade to a nicer bike and dont want any of those 3, that his recommendations are insufficient, and i would need more general numbers as you outlined to make a good decision.
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Re: Help me understand bike fit [Robert Driskell] [ In reply to ]
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Robert Driskell wrote:
Are you basing your changes off of a fit 3 years ago? If so, has your hip flexor range improved? You should have your bike refit. Get some newer physical assessment numbers then go from there.

Hi Robert, No I'm not, i was just using it to gouge if some bikes were complete no go etc/dreaming of a Canyon Speed max and wanted to find out if it was within my range at all.

If/when i want to buy the next bike i would get a new fit done, probably at another place :)
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