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Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems
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The old timers around here will remember the epidemiological study on swimming induced pulmonary edema that Francois, Katwoman and I did several years ago. That work grew out of a series of threads here on Slowtwitch, was conducted in coordination with USA Triathlon and ultimately was published in the American Journal of Emergency Medicine - a publication strategy intended to maximize exposure of emergency medicine docs and first-responders to the characteristics of this entity. When I had my own SIPE episode a decade ago, no one knew what it was, so it was a high priority for me personally to address that gap in provider knowledge.

Anyway.... that experience has recently got me thinking about sport-limiting vascular problems; things like iliac artery endofibrosis in cyclists, thoracic outlet syndrome in swimmers and baseball pitchers, popliteal entrapment and other lower extremity problems that cause compartment syndrome-like symptoms. There are multiple approaches to treating these problems, not a lot of consensus or high-quality data about what works and what doesn’t, and no real high-volume centers with a lot of experience, because these problems are not particularly common in any local community, but in the aggregate they occur in fair numbers and are devastating to the people who struggle with them. I have helped several Slowtwitchers identify qualified surgeons to address these problems over the years (and not just from my group - I try to be unbiased in these things), but I would really like to know more about scope and scale of these kinds of problems at the national level.

My research group has recently started a nonprofit that focuses on patient experience with vascular disease in general, but I am particularly interested in the issues mentioned above. In preparation for more formal work on this topic, I would be grateful to hear from any of you in the Slowtwitch community that have dealt with these problems, particularly with respect to length of process to get a proper diagnosis, inappropriate treatment based on an incorrect diagnosis, access to a treatment plan you found acceptable once you had a proper diagnosis, type and results of treatment, and your satisfaction with the process and the outcome. Ultimately I would like to do this on a large scale as we did with SIPE and USAT, but I would like to develop enough background to make this effort meaningful. Feel free to PM if you don’t want to reply publicly.

Finally, as a shameless plug, our little nonprofit is hosting a 5k to start raising awareness next weekend. If you are in the Houston area we’d love to have you join us. I have a link posted in the Notices forum, in keeping with Slowtwitch community policy.

Many thanks.

Trey
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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Does post-thrombotic syndrome count?
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Absolutely. Even if it isn’t something that originated from a sports injury, it certainly has an impact on sports participation / enjoyment, and the sport-related impact should be amenable to treatment if we can identify the best plan. I will add it to the problem list, but would like to know as much as people can describe about how they’ve dealt with such things and how it has gone.
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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How about massive blood clot in the leg causing pulmonary embolism, then having an IVC filter installed that ruptured in the inferior cava vein having two surgeries to try to remove it with success on the second surgery but the vein was damaged thus causing stenosis of the inferior cava vein, having to have 3 balloon surgeries to keep the vein open with some success. These were just the thrombotic issues caused by the IVC filter rupture, major nerve damage was caused in the spine due to the prongs of the IVC filter protruding out of the vein into various nerves and psoas muscle. The stenosis of the IVC thus prevents normal flow return of the blood to the heart thus slowing me down as far as pushing the heart rate.
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [hercules] [ In reply to ]
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First, let me say that I am really sorry to hear this. Large pulmonary embolism is a significant problem, and management is controversial and fraught with peril; IVC filters are particularly troublesome as you obviously know. Our vascular surgery group runs a dedicated filter retrieval service specifically to address these kinds of issues.

What kinds of training modifications have you made in response to all of this? Have you been able to separate in your mind the lingering effects of the PE vs. the IVC stenosis? I would be very interested to know if any particular strategy has been helpful in dealing with this (eg., shorter high intensity intervals, longer efforts in lower heart rate zones, etc).

If you are still on anticoagulation, do you take any special precautions on the bike?
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Trey, I will try to answer your questions to see if this is any help for you, sorry it is a bit long but I wanted to let you know the full situation in the hopes it helps.

The IVC issues happened back on 2012, I was lucky to find great staff at UCLA intervention radiology who basically saved my life regarding the IVC filter issue, but after the stenosis I am unable to basically go as fast as I once did. I had done 25 Ironman races with the fastest 10hr and could run a 10k around 35min to give you an idea, also the endurance is not the same I get tired more easily. I still train but certainly no more races since all that happened in 2012. I had been into running and triathlons since 1980 so a good long time when back then more was better so I was used to lots of training. Since 2012 I probably have not ridden over 60 miles in one go as I just get fatigued not in the normal sense of not being trained up it is my body gets tired and I know my heart rate goes higher probably due to the narrowing of the IVC. Today I still train two things most days, example bike 25 and swim or gym, little running now days. I usually have a MRV once a year to see how the veins are doing in my back, I have not had a leg doppler in a few years now, I still have a few old residual clots in the leg but they are calloused over now.

I was lucky as that year 2012 I had 3 major PE's episodes and thankfully no lingering issues from them, in fact I had no issues what so ever when I had the original blood clot in my leg, no pain, no swelling the only thing I noticed was probably when it first started over Thanksgiving 2011 was a burning sensation in my left knee when I stopped running for a short time but it would go away after a couple of minutes this lasted for about a week then just went away altogether but then of course I noticed the breathing issues, this went on until the following Feb 2012 after I had been through all sorts of tests even an angiogram, when I was given a CT scan and it was discovered both lungs very badly filled with blood clots, the doctors were amazed I was still alive let alone still training, but thankfully being so fit saved my life. All the major issues after was due to the IVC filter rupture, why one was ever installed and left in place doctors since cannot even understand, but too late to complain after the fact I didn't know how dangerous they are. I have subsequently had a number of heart tests to make sure there was no damage to the heart after the blood clot issues and thankfully nothing and no scaring on the lungs today.

Yes I am on blood thinners, Coumadin for life just as a precaution due to the stenosis no blood factors, the original clot may have been caused by wearing an unloader brace on my knee due to micro fracture surgery back in 2008, as there is a damage to a vein behind the knee so that is suspect.

Yes I am concerned about riding the bike but back in 2016 I was hit by a truck, I know some luck I have! anyway my luck held out as I had a terrible head injury but thankfully no brain bleed due to the blood thinners, lots of other broken bones but thankfully it could have been worse, it took over a year for me to want to go back out on the road on the bike but after doing it for most of my life I said enough of the wind trainer and went back out on the road obviously after the brain injury I don't enjoy it as I once did but I have got my fitness back but I still feel the limitation of the IVC stenosis. The other major issue of course is because the IVC is so close to the spine when that filter ruptured it pressed into the spine and nerves thus causing terrible nerve pain in the back and groin which is also limiting to me being able to train like I used to.

The doctor who saved my life at UCLA is Dr Stephen Kee one of the top intervention radiologists, I am his number 2 patient as far as being lucky to be alive after all the IVC filter damage he often using my case in his presentations I kid him I should get royalties, but my luck held as after he was able to retrieve the filter that was when the IVC collapsed and then I needed 3 or 4 balloon procedures to keep it open they had talked of if it didn't work to put a stent in but of course it was near the renal vein and they were worried it would migrate to that area and cover that vein but thankfully it help open after their last go. Those were not fun surgeries as I would have to be partially awake as when they stuck the catheter in the vein and started to balloon it open I had to tell them when it got too painful as this was the best way of letting them know it was getting expanded as they didn't want to go too far and burst the vein.. no fun as you can imagine. I hope all this helps plenty of issues I have not spoke about during those times but I figure this is enough for you right now. Cheers LA Rob
Last edited by: hercules: Aug 31, 18 11:35
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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How do you want to hear from us? I have/had external iliac artery endofibrosis. If you PM me an e-mail address, I can send you a bunch of answers to your questions.
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [hercules] [ In reply to ]
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This is great information, Rob, thank you. A lot to digest, and I may be back to you with follow-up questions later on.
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Eileen] [ In reply to ]
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Sent. Thanks Eileen!
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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I was diagnosed with endofibrosis recently. I’ve been struggling with it for about 4 years and finally got around to getting to the bottom of it. Surgery is an option for me, but I haven’t made up my mind going that route yet. You can pm me for questions if you like. I’m in Canada if that matters.

_______________________________________________
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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In 2011 I was diagnosed with iliac artery endofibrosis in the common iliac artery and femoral artery on both the left and ride side. I have had 4 surgeries since then and complications from a couple of the surgeries. I would be happy to answer any questions you have.

Jill
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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There's a whole lengthy thread on iliac artery endofibrosis: https://bit.ly/2N2l6P1. I had bilateral EIAE that took 25 years to get diagnosed. It was a confusing time in my life, lol, not knowing what the hell was wrong with my legs. Between onset and diagnosis, I also had a DVT/Bilateral PE episode. My story, and a CT of the blocked arteries, are in the above thread. Feel free to PM me.
Last edited by: HeidiC: Sep 1, 18 20:39
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [HeidiC] [ In reply to ]
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HeidiC...unfortunately, that thread was shut down for commenting/replying. I wish it wasn't. Not sure how it can get unlocked.
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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Trey, so very interested as I've been having problems with my left leg with EIAE. Ready to move forward with the surgery after 4 years of struggling with this problem. Would really love to speak to you with regard to finding a capable and knowledgeable surgeon. Unfortunately, the seeming expert and well versed doctor in this area has retired.
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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Chronic exercise-induced compartment syndrome here ... happy to help if that's on your list.
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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My teenage daughter was ultimately diagnosed with compartment syndrome. She was a promising middle school distance runner through her freshman year. She started developing lower leg cramps when running during her sophomore year. Took a little over a year to get a diagnosis. Eventually had surgery on both legs, to no success. Thought she might have popliteal artery issue, but they dismissed that after some testing as I recall. She went through a series of botox injections in her legs, but again, no relief. It was really sad to see her go from front of the pack and scoring for the Varsity Team as a Freshman, to finishing hear the back of the JV group by the time she was a senior. She still wants to run, and can, but she has to keep the pace at no more than a jog to avoid cramps. FWIW, she just turned 20. They said she could go through a second surgery, and that that might help, but it was such an ordeal that she decided to forgo that option as she'd heard of another local girl who'd had the surgery multiple times without relief. I question the validity of her diagnosis, or at least wonder if something else might also be at play.

I wanna go fast!
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Re: Help me plan a study - sport limiting vascular problems [Trey] [ In reply to ]
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I have EIAE and been dealing with it for 5 years. Took 2+ years to get diagnosed. If you have a specific list of questions/survey you'd like answers to, I'd be happy to help. I'd be even more grateful if you could suggest qualified surgeons for me in India! I'm a Canadian who recently moved here.

Duathlete by choice?
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