OK, I'll go. I just went P5d 2 x Red AXS and LOVE it. Zipp 302 for training and Zipp 858 + Super 9 disc. Love it all. a bit of sticker shock!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Cheers! Have you hesitated with Force AXS or 1x?

What made you go for the P5d in case you had similar criteria’s as mine?

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I have a Felt IA, and I love it. But, out of that list of four, the P5 Disc is my hands-down, no-brianer. It is probably the fastest of that list-- realistically, the only thing potentially faster is a P3X or P5X.

For wheels, I would sell everything and get something else. I train and race on a 9/disc combo, and that is what I would want on a best-in-class bike.

I said Red 2 x

Got P5d b/c I loved my P5 . . . seemed natural

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I was choosing between the P5d and the BMC TM01 disc. Ended up ordering the BMC,
mainly because I was able to get a good deal on that one. Also, I have the BMC TM disc road bike as well, so they will make a nice couple in the basement. 😀

I will get the bike any day now, so I can’t review the bike as such yet. Anyway, I think both are great bikes and that you won’t go wrong on either. I do like the possibility to move the seat post on the BMC however. It’s a pretty cool feature.

That's what I've read on other ST threads - is there a study or review that compares the P5D with the TM01D? Would be really interested by such a thing

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Congrats then!! Could you briefly tell me what advantages and backdraws each of the P5D and TM01 disc had in your opinion? (setting aside the deal you managed to get)

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I have not seen anything published, comparative or otherwise, about the new TM01 Disc. It seems like the market has gotten away from competitive aero comparisons over the past few years.

Interesting - it seems to be commonly accepted that the P5D is the fastest bike out there, is that also based on people’s experience or is there an aero comparison?

Thanks

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This is Cervelo’s published comparison of the old and new P5.

Thanks! Only drawback is that I live in Sweden and won’t be able to ride it outdoors for approximately six months...

Well, starting out I was looking for a disc break TT bike as my intention is to be able to swap wheels between the road and TT bike. I have connections to Cervelo and BMC through work, which is one main reason I was looking that direction. Also, both brands apparently know how to make fast bikes. The P5d is proven by some really good results from Sunweb and several triathletes. And even if the pro cyclists and triathletes are not riding the disc brake version of the TM (yet), I am confident that BMC will not release a slow bike. They have too much knowledge and prestige to screw that up, in my opinion.

As it happened I was able to get a good deal on the BMC, but would have been equally happy with the P5d. What I do like about the BMC is the possibility to put the seat post in “triathlon mode” and have a storage box in the rear. Also, there are two different cockpits, one that is UCI compliant (and likely faster as it is lower) and one triathlon cockpit (v shaped). I also think I read somewhere that the cockpit should be easy to “fold” for packing in a bike bag.

As mentioned, I have a BMC TMR and absolutely love the bike, why I feel confident that the TM will be awesome as well. But, as also mentioned, I don’t think you can go wrong on either bike and think which one you choose is a matter of personal preferences rather than bike performance.

May I suggest the Parlee TTiR as another option?



I'm coming from the rim-brake version of the BMC TM01. Awesome bike but the Parlee is phenomenal and a dramatic upgrade.
- Not sure if it is the frame or the disc wheels/axles that make the bike so much more stiff, but the front/rear balance and responsiveness of this bike is amazing. It feels completely rigid and connected from front to rear. There is no lost energy.
It rides as responsively as a climbing road bike. But is also dead stable and fast in the aerobars.
- There is a short, steep hill climb segment I do. Riding the Parlee I crushed my PR vs my road Cervelo S3. The Parlee is 20+ pounds and my Cervelo is 14. How is this possible?
- Another gradual climb with sweeping turns, again, crushed my PR. On a tri bike!

The Parlee TTiR was the first mainstream tri bike to embrace disc wheels and the engineering is really thoughtful. The pricing is probably lower than you would expect (though you have to go through an authorized dealer).

I went SRAM Force for the base configuration which includes awesome Hed Ardennes "training wheels" with Hed Vanquish 6/8's for race wheels. Force doesn't have a 50x37 front so I upgraded to Red for that as well as the rear cassette for the race wheels.

If you train in a place that has hills and you do hilly races, I would recommend this bike. Also, the 2x front end. The weight savings of the 1x is super marginal and the gearing limitations will likely leave you frustrated.
Regarding wheel choice, personally I like a super stable front wheel; just raced with the Hed 6/8's on a really windy/gusty course and it was terrifying. I wish I got the Hed 4 instead of the 6 in front. Point being, maybe keep the front Enve?

I think this silence says a lot about what we already know... that the newer bikes are generally not faster, maybe even slower... as independent testing is showing with aero road disc bikes in many cases. Modern aero changes are just there to nullify or minimize losses from our thirst for wider tires/rims (more surface area), disc brakes (more spokes, larger hubs, the discs), etc. Never mind weight increases.

Peak aero is here, and there is no free lunch at this point in time. The fastest tri bike is maybe 10w faster than a cheap 10yo tt bike at very high speeds (30mph, as per the peak aero slowtwitch article). Maybe 3-4w faster than a solid modern bike. Wrinkles in a speed suit are worth more. So back to the old cliche... start with fit.

I have a 2020 felt ia disc with force etap. I chose it due to lbs support, loving the carbon/silhouette, and because i figured as a lower power rider in a windy area, i would see higher yaws, and thus benefit from the sailing effect. The problem is that it made me so aero that i could hold 45km/hr for far longer than i ever expected to. But on slower rides, and with the wind, i was shocked how well it stood up to gusts and crosswinds. We know deeper airfoils keep air attached longer, and it holds true in the constantly changing winds of reality. I swear that my road bike with shallower 56mm rims gets blown around more than my ia with 58/62.

Light it is not, but fast it is, and i love the shifting. The front is a good starting place as it is among the most adjustable options... period... and about as light as the best, and pretty aero also. I got a low stack, high hands mantis position easily out of the box.

This is because Jim Felt is a freakin' genius and he intentionally designed the bike to behave this way. It is magic. I can get hit by a 30 MPH gust, and I feel practically nothing on my Felt IA with a rear disc and 90mm front.

I "upgraded" from a BMC TM01 (rim) to a P3X. I liked the BMC, great looking bike too, but for me the P3X (had to get around to the beam bike idea, but love t now) was significantly more comfortable and rode like a road bike. I was leaning towards the P5d too, but got a great deal on the P3X and couldn't be happier.

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Do you have fit coordinates? Its easiest to prescribe a setup when you know where you want to be aboard the bike. If you need a long and low bike (or shorter and taller) based on your body and riding position then the fastest bike in the world will be made slower if you can't get into the right position.

To be very honest, I'm not sure how to interpret this graph. Seems like they both had their strength at different angles but what else can be deducted from that?

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No you are totally right, I do believe that both bikes are great. Simply checking which one works best for my use ;-)

Storage capacity seems indeed to be a bit in favor of the TM01disc - can anyone confirm? Correct me if I'm wrong but on the P5d, you cannot have a storage "draft" box in the rear?

Also you are mentioning the foldable cockpit of the TM01, I haven't heard of that but would be interested to hear people's travel experiences with both bikes!

Thanks

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Looks great!! I must admit that it was not on my list but your description might make me want to do some research about it :-)

What do you mean by hilly course? We are talking on the 70.3 distance - I'm planning for races with 700/800m (approx. 2200/2500ft) of vertical gain. According to you, would that be an issue with the 1x?

When you are on that 50t crankset, which speeds are you using most on the cassette? I mean for instance 50x10 is really a lot? (Asking since I'm also wondering what I would get in case of a 1x setup)

Thanks

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Sorry if it should be basic knowledge but what do you mean by "sailing effect"? I mean what characteristics enhance that feature?

Also what do you mean by "lower power rider"? Let's imagine that I have a relative higher power output - then the sailing effect of the Felt IA would not be as interesting for me?

Thanks!!

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Getting a bike fit, and thus my coordinates, on Wednesday. It will definitely help to decide! :-)

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This basically shows that the P5D is about the same as the P5. And, the P5 has won about every competitor comparison I have ever seen. So, those are the source of the sentiment that the P5D is the fastest bike (except maybe the P5 is still the fastest).

Perfect. I am happy to help if you want support in narrowing it down once you have the numbers. Stack/reach, pad x/y, etc.

this can get technical quite fast.

”Sailing” bikes/wheels are ones that perform better at high yaw wind angles (think a windy location like kona). Quick and dirty, they tend to have deeper airfoils, or more surface area, and wind can in part push them forward.

Yaw is like apparent wind angle in sailing. You see higher wind angles/yaw the slower you ride, or the higher the wind (to keep it simple). Frames like the felt ia, and deep wheels, get some “push” at high yaw, similar to a sailboat, except that it is still small relative to the total drag of the bike. Call it less drag than you might normally have with a sidewind.

But the stronger a rider you are, the faster you will go, and thus the lower the apparent wind angle you will see. The faster you go, the more wind seems to just come from the front. This limits the benefits of “sailing” frames

The trick is that “sailing” designs with big side surface area tend to be a: heavier, and b: Tend to have inferior aero properties at low yaw (wind straight on). So it is a bit of a trade-off.

Felt’s wind tunnel data released cerca 2014 was very interesting. Below 7.5degrees yaw, the p5 was the faster bike, above that, the ia was faster. so the faster bike really depended on the speed of the rider, and wind on course.

Now, the IA was designed for kona, With a traditionally very windy bike leg. but for many races, the average yaw is less than 10 degrees, or less than even 7.5degrees, so in those cases a p5 would be faster.

Or that is the basis of it. There is not much between the best and “the rest” bike frames even at pro speeds. I say get a bike that fits, and that you like.

Another concept that is harder to measure, and is more theoretical until someone tests it, (but maybe justified by cross wind stability perceptions..), is that real world wind is not laminar. In those conditions, a deeper airfoil will reattach wind faster, and keep wind attached longer (i.e less drag than the laminar wind tunnel data would suggest vs shallower frames).