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Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math)
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Hi there

i want to buy some bulk maltodextrin and fructose to make a much cheaper version of the maurten drink, however i want to make sure i get the right amounts of sodium (and the other electrolytes) and possibly pectin in the mix so that it mixes into the water well.

im a pretty dumb guy so need help with this....

for example in each serving i would want to achieve

100 grams of carbs with a 2:1 ratio of maltodextrin to fructose
1000mg of sodium (plus potassium and other small electrolytes)
some pectin

Using these rough amounts how would i best calculate the right weight of electrolytes to add, or the best place to source them?

i figured i can add together a huge 10kg bag of maltodextrin with 5kg of fructose, but then should i just buy a branded electrolyte powder like SiS or scratch and add that to the mix?
Let me know thanks
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.trainerroad.com/...h-quality-food/27869

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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I do something similar to what you suggest. Maltodextrin and fructose in a 2:1 ratio (1.5 scoops of malto and 1 scoop of fructose) and then add a High5 electrolyte tab (adds some flavor and sometimes with caffeine) for a 750ml bottle.

That's ~70gr of maltodextrin and ~35gr of fructose, which would equate to 4 gels at a much lower cost.

Since I live in Spain, I buy them from HSN or Bulk in 1kg format. I wouldn't buy them in larger bags, especially the fructose because it tends to get sticky or wet. I don't see the point of buying 5kg to get a 10-20% lower price when 1kg is €3-4.

When I finish these bags I'll try dextrin and palatinose. Why? Expensive gels include them, and apparently they don't cause caries.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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It's going to matter how many calories per cup or gram depending on how you decide to mix. Also unsure how to test the pectin without testing... I use NOW bulk malto and just use boiling water the night before or mix with ice soon after. Toss in a nuun tab for electros and then I use honey.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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This is the way.
Prepacked supplement stuff is easy and expensive but often there is no telling what's actually in there in what ratio. This has led me to some nutrition tinkering to discover that's actually effective as a preworkout versus the crap being included just to bulk up the weight. I've enjoyed experimenting with making my own.

I really enjoy liquid electrolytes and have been using them exclusively, aside from capsules for racing. Trace Mineral drops are good because they are sodium free, so I can add in good quality Himalayan pink salt. Gotta be carefully with liquid magnesium though, that stuff chills me out to the point of wanting to sleep.

The Ultima brand is my favorite premixed stuff as there is no sugar and the flavor isn't exhausting like others.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [anakinpm] [ In reply to ]
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ahh i am in Spain too, i will look into HSN thanks. then will maybe mix into a plastic tub and keep the electrolytes seperate and just add in tabs each time to the bottle. does that mix okay without needing to boil it?

when i used sis beta fuel which is a bit more expensive i just shake the bottle and no need to boil that mix
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it's necessary to mix them in advance. Just add 1.5 scoops of maltodextrin and 1 of fructose, add electrolytes and shake well. That guarantees you are getting the right ratio. In a mix, maybe some day you get 2:1 and the next 1.6:1. No need to boil either

Take a look at this https://www.climbingnutrition.com/...ur-own-sports-drink/

I buy from SiS only when they have special sale offers like the taster pack. Too expensive otherwise

Btw, if it's your first time buying from HSN or Bulk (I prefer the later for whey and nut butters), these are my referral codes so you save some money (and so do I)

HSN: FP82249
Bulk: https://referme.to/franciscojavierperezm-5
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [anakinpm] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve only ever used commercially available stuff (gels, chews, NUUN,Gatorade, etc). If you mix your own stuff, is this intended as a substitute for nutrition, electrolyte hydration, or both? How do you manage to replenish it during longer event, e.g. IM or HIM, or is this purely for shorter distance stuff? Do you just pack replacements into your special needs bag on an IM course? Do you add any sort of flavoring? I find that after 4-5 hours of gel that my tolerance for ‘sweet’ as a flavor is really low, i just hate the taste. Maybe I should just drink BBQ sauce on the bike. Those are pretty sugary.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [eblackadder] [ In reply to ]
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While I do believe it's important to train your specific in-race nutrition, I think the most important thing is to train your gut. If you were to consume 60-100g of carbohydrates per hour, you just need to train that in a variety of forms.

For me, that means many long rides in the weekends. I could do it with commercially available stuff, but I realized that it's very expensive. I refuse to spend €10 in nutrition every time I go for a ride. That's what marketing tells you.

In a long event I make my first two bottles and pack gels, bars or make my own sandwiches. Then I trust the aid stations.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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Info dump incoming! I hope you'll find some of it useful.

You might not want 2:1 gluc:fruc. There is good evidence to suggest that much closer to 1:1 is optimal. More on that in a bit.

FYI: Sodium Citrate has about 1000mg sodium per tsp. Table salt is about 2000mg sodium per tsp. This is the sodium citrate I buy. No affiliation. Sodium Citrate

Using sodium citrate in place of table salt allows your gut to tolerate more sodium consumption during training. Sodium citrate has 3 sodium molecules for every 1 citrate molecule. Sodium chloride has 1 sodium molecule for every 1 chloride molecule. That means that for the same amount of sodium consumption, there will be a greater number of molecules ingested, if using table salt, rather than sodium citrate. Osmolarity is the number of molecules per unit volume of solution. Our gastrointestinal tracts are sensitive to very high osmolarity solutions. During normal daily living, consumption of very high osmolar solutions (lots of molecules per liter) causes a laxative effect 20-60 minutes after consumption. During exercise, it causes gut cramping, THEN a laxative effect. My personal experience with this can be described as "not fun!"

Gatorade is really just water, sugars, salts, flavor, coloring, and preservative, and sometimes pectin for texture/mouthfeel.

Useful facts for your understanding:
Glucose = Dextrose. Same molecule, interchangeable name.
Maltodextrin = strung-together dextrose. Variable # of dextrose. Average of 10-20 molecules.
Sucrose = 1 Glucose + 1 Fructose, connected

The ideal ratio of glucose to fructose in intra-workout carb consumption (from all sources, ie: drinks, gels, chews, food etc.) is roughly 1:1 and certainly anything worse than 2:1 glucose:fructose is a recipe for under-performance and potential gut issues. Reason: absorption rates are better with closer to 1:1 ratio.

The old info of 60g carbs from glucose per hour and 30g carbs from fructose per hour is just that, old. Closer to 1:1 ratio with a pretty hard max for GLUCOSE around 60-70g/hr is more optimal. Folks who train to do it can routinely consume 100-150g carbs per hour on the bike if using roughly 1:1 ratio or even slightly higher fructose.

Hence, optimality can be roughly achieved through use of purely maltodextrin plus fructose, or through purely use of sucrose, or through a roughly equal mix of the 3. Goal = minimizing number of molecules. Hence, pure dextrose + pure fructose is slightly less optimal.

More important to you and I, table sugar is cheap and optimal.

Further yet, the osmolarity of solution can be lowered by using table sugar exclusively, as compared to maltodextrin plus fructose, assuming an average maltodextrin strand length and assuming you're shooting for closer to 1:1 rather than 2:1. Sorry to all current dealers of maltodextrin!!

Here is info on how I do this specifically:
Saving Money as an Endurance Athlete
(more specifically, I mix everything day-of, with no boiling. I just put in a big bottle and shake vigorously.)

I use Zefal Magnum Bottles (32oz) because they're huge and I like a lot of carbs! :) (no affiliation with this either)

Here's more info on specifically how to make this work:
When and How to Use High-Carb Fueling

And another example of intra-workout math for your reading pleasure... but not all home-brew stuff FYI in advance:
Detailed Intra-Workout Fueling 3-hr Example

Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | NUTRITION | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
Last edited by: DrAlexHarrison: Jan 3, 21 10:21
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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There's an extensive publication on the mixture ratios: Addition of an Alginate Hydrogel to a Carbohydrate Beverage Enhances Gastric Emptying - Shaun Sutehall, Stuart D R Galloway, Andrew Bosch, Yannis Pitsiladis


I'm not sure if it's accessible to everyone: https://www.researchgate.net/...ces_Gastric_Emptying
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Impressive knowledge thanks Alex. Further question, I was reading the ben greenfield book and he recommends including essential aminoacids in a carb sports drink for ironman in order to help avoid CNS fatigue issues, would you think this would impair the osmolality of the drink you suggest? Also what is your views on ketone eshers consumption as well, would you support a broad nutrition strategy hitting all the metabolic systems (say Ketoens+UCAN+Sugars+Electrolytes, even though not all in the same drink) or would you rather focus on more narrow sugar + electrolyte methabolism? I am talking about 9h+ ironman intensity so say 75% of FTP/60% of VO2 Max, ie primarily aerobic.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [TomvdS] [ In reply to ]
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TomvdS wrote:
There's an extensive publication on the mixture ratios: Addition of an Alginate Hydrogel to a Carbohydrate Beverage Enhances Gastric Emptying - Shaun Sutehall, Stuart D R Galloway, Andrew Bosch, Yannis Pitsiladis


I'm not sure if it's accessible to everyone: https://www.researchgate.net/...ces_Gastric_Emptying


Great article find. I had not seen this. They compared a sodium alginate-containing beverage to one not containing sodium. They need to match sodium for this to indicate anything about sodium alginate specifically because there is good evidence that any sodium inclusion in a carb beverage enhances absorption rate.

Sodium citrate may work the same. Table salt may work the same (though slightly increase osmolarity compared to sodium citrate).

I humbly posit based on my current review of lit (not comprehensive) that it may be possible that maurten works better for many athletes than other beverages mixes in real life because:
  1. They recommend higher total carb consumption than most others.
  2. They have closer to 1:1 ratio of gluc:fruc than their competitors (the ones who report ratios usually report ~2:1)
  3. Confirmation bias because of high purchase price and fancy package.

...not because of sodium alginate.

At least, as the body of research currently sits, there is no evidence that it's better than a any other beverage when matched for:
  1. Sodium content
  2. Carb content
  3. Energy density
  4. Concentration
  5. Osmolarity
  6. Glucose:Fructose ratio

I suspect these folks would agree though I have not read their complete article yet.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/345808685_Carbohydrate_supplementation_a_critical_review_of_recent_innovations


Would love to see evidence otherwise, because I'll be the first person in line buying sodium alginate!

Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | NUTRITION | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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holy shit, a response like that was what i kinda wanted when making this post. super interesting info.

couple of follow up questions then

the table sugar you say at the end as being optimal combo, does this mean normal table sugar is glucose/fructose mixed at that 1:1 ratio?

how do you make your drinks? just add table sugar plus sodium citrate? or the same sodium but with 1 scoop of both fructose and dextrose? whats best

also is there any benefit to what some brands have started to advertise which is this "slow release" stuff? i've always thought that would just mean more complex = harder to break down in gut = slower release + more gut stress? i here of maltodextrin but also cluster-dextrin?

Is this all just BS selling stuff and in an ironman race of 9 hours surely i just need to absorb the max rate of energy i can while racing such as 100 grams of carbs per hour and having "slow release" carbs wouldnt make a difference apart from stressing my gut?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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ItaloBritt wrote:
Impressive knowledge thanks Alex. Further question, I was reading the ben greenfield book and he recommends including essential aminoacids in a carb sports drink for ironman in order to help avoid CNS fatigue issues, would you think this would impair the osmolality of the drink you suggest? Also what is your views on ketone eshers consumption as well, would you support a broad nutrition strategy hitting all the metabolic systems (say Ketoens+UCAN+Sugars+Electrolytes, even though not all in the same drink) or would you rather focus on more narrow sugar + electrolyte methabolism? I am talking about 9h+ ironman intensity so say 75% of FTP/60% of VO2 Max, ie primarily aerobic.


You're welcome. Happy to share!

Yes, slightly, but have not done the math. BCAA effects are likely minimal, though if shooting for complete optimization and money and time were no object, I might at least crunch numbers to include or test it a bit for gut tolerance. Easier than crunching numbers and more accurate for you personally.

I wouldn't ingest ketone esters during exercise.

Here's the only non-food things I currently ingest during or before exercise.
Table Sugar
Gatorade powder.
Beta Alanine, 1kg, Bulk Supplements via Amazon
Beet Root Powder 1kg, Bulk Supplements via Amazon
Citrulline Malate, Bulk Supplements via Amazon
Caffeine from Bulk Supps on Amazon is great. There may be equivalent products for up to about 50% cheaper if you scour amazon. 200mg caffeine per pill and nothing else is what you're looking for. Nothing fancy. The cheaper the better.
Creatine from Bulk Supplements on Amazon (NOT for triathletes lol. Sprint cyclist married to another sprint cyclist/triathlete here!.)
Sodium Citrate

I have zero affiliation with any supp company by the way. Just sharing what I personally use. (I'm cheap!)

Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | NUTRITION | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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LordFarquuad wrote:
holy shit, a response like that was what i kinda wanted when making this post. super interesting info.

couple of follow up questions then

the table sugar you say at the end as being optimal combo, does this mean normal table sugar is glucose/fructose mixed at that 1:1 ratio?

how do you make your drinks? just add table sugar plus sodium citrate? or the same sodium but with 1 scoop of both fructose and dextrose? whats best

also is there any benefit to what some brands have started to advertise which is this "slow release" stuff? i've always thought that would just mean more complex = harder to break down in gut = slower release + more gut stress? i here of maltodextrin but also cluster-dextrin?

Is this all just BS selling stuff and in an ironman race of 9 hours surely i just need to absorb the max rate of energy i can while racing such as 100 grams of carbs per hour and having "slow release" carbs wouldnt make a difference apart from stressing my gut?

Like this: (this was linked in my first long-winded post, but didn't show up as a link unless mouse hovers directly over it)
https://renaissanceperiodization.com/...intra-workout-drinks

TLDR: Gatorade + Sugar + Sodium Citrate. I don't purchase dextrose or fructose. Just Gatorade and sugar.

Maltodextrin is not slow-release though it has been marketed as such. It is great. Just not better than sugar, because you have to add fructose and targeting a 1:1 gluc:fruc ratio while doing so makes sugar have the lower osmolarity.

Cluster dextrin is also not better, nor is it slow-release. Neither is highly branched cluster dextrin (HBCD).

If anything actually IS slow-release, it will stress gut more. You're right.

Yes. All marketing. (and lots of supp companies genuinely believe that 2:1 is better because of older nutrition science dogma, in which case maltodextrin + fructose probably is better than dextrose + fructose.... marginally.)

Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | NUTRITION | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Alex, thanks for the details and links.


Another question (slightly off the sodium topic) is osmolality: so following your article for a standard 750ml bottle 8% would be 60 grams (240 cals regardless of the ration of the carb mix). That's on the low end of the "old school" digestible scale (60-90). So assuming maximal capacity is 100-120g, does that mean that in order to get maximum carbs in you should be consuming 1.5-2 bottles an hour? that's a lot of liquids.
This is assuming all liquid calories, but even if you use gels you would still need to water it down for optimal osmolality, so the question still remains.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [dgutstadt] [ In reply to ]
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dgutstadt wrote:
Alex, thanks for the details and links.


Another question (slightly off the sodium topic) is osmolality: so following your article for a standard 750ml bottle 8% would be 60 grams (240 cals regardless of the ration of the carb mix). That's on the low end of the "old school" digestible scale (60-90). So assuming maximal capacity is 100-120g, does that mean that in order to get maximum carbs in you should be consuming 1.5-2 bottles an hour? that's a lot of liquids.
This is assuming all liquid calories, but even if you use gels you would still need to water it down for optimal osmolality, so the question still remains.

Max capacity is probably on higher end for events where hydration isn't absolutely critical or being pushed to limits via climate/conditions. 120-150g/hr is doable for most folks, and is performance enhancing, if I had to guess, over 90-100g/hr, though this remains relatively unexamined because the dogma in the nutrition science field is so strong towards "90g/hr"

For 2-6-hr events targeting 100-150g/hr is wise.
When dehydration risk is higher, target 90-120g/hr.

Reason: your intuition is correct: it would be a lot of fluids to be able to consume >120g/hr at 8% solution. Using 10-18% solution is more optimal. The longer the event, the lower the percentage. The longer the event, the more hydration loss will occur. The reason for recommendations of 6-8% in the literature is for optimal hydration, not for optimal energetic fueling. It's a delicate balance... as you quickly realized with some number crunching!

Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | NUTRITION | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
dgutstadt wrote:
Alex, thanks for the details and links.


Another question (slightly off the sodium topic) is osmolality: so following your article for a standard 750ml bottle 8% would be 60 grams (240 cals regardless of the ration of the carb mix). That's on the low end of the "old school" digestible scale (60-90). So assuming maximal capacity is 100-120g, does that mean that in order to get maximum carbs in you should be consuming 1.5-2 bottles an hour? that's a lot of liquids.
This is assuming all liquid calories, but even if you use gels you would still need to water it down for optimal osmolality, so the question still remains.


Max capacity is probably on higher end for events where hydration isn't absolutely critical or being pushed to limits via climate/conditions. 120-150g/hr is doable for most folks, and is performance enhancing, if I had to guess, over 90-100g/hr, though this remains relatively unexamined because the dogma in the nutrition science field is so strong towards "90g/hr"

For 2-6-hr events targeting 100-150g/hr is wise.
When dehydration risk is higher, target 90-120g/hr.

Reason: your intuition is correct: it would be a lot of fluids to be able to consume >120g/hr at 8% solution. Using 10-18% solution is more optimal. The longer the event, the lower the percentage. The longer the event, the more hydration loss will occur. The reason for recommendations of 6-8% in the literature is for optimal hydration, not for optimal energetic fueling. It's a delicate balance... as you quickly realized with some number crunching!

Thanks for the prompt reply.
That makes sense, I found I can take higher concentration in 70.3 than in a full IM (despite the higher intensity).
Its finding that balance that is key and avoiding a sugary sludge in the belly for the run (been there, done that)

thanks
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [dgutstadt] [ In reply to ]
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Bingo! Getting progressively more dilute as you go through events >5 hrs in length is a great idea.

Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | NUTRITION | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Question for the group: So exactly would you go about training your gut? do you take in your target carb load during every workout? or do you only do this during long workouts?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Train like you race as often as possible. Certainly for every workout that is 2+ hrs.

No need to target max fuel consumption during efforts <60 minutes.

Doing it as often as possible ensures you're both practiced, and that your gut is fully adapted for max absorption, but also ensures max training quality and physical training adaptations due to improved training quality and recovery.

Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | NUTRITION | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Hm...
So that's a "No" to the notion of training fat metabolism by having some longer workouts with reduced carb fueling?

if you can read this
YOU'RE DRAFTING!
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Train like you race as often as possible. Certainly for every workout that is 2+ hrs.

No need to target max fuel consumption during efforts <60 minutes.

Doing it as often as possible ensures you're both practiced, and that your gut is fully adapted for max absorption, but also ensures max training quality and physical training adaptations due to improved training quality and recovery.

Thanks for the reply! That makes sense but seems like a lot of extra calories. I'm used to being to do workouts under 2hrs with no fuel and then maybe 200-400cals for up to 3hrs that includes "real" work during the workout (not just zone 2). I'll try gradually uping my intake and see how things progress.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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FuzzyRunner wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Train like you race as often as possible. Certainly for every workout that is 2+ hrs.

No need to target max fuel consumption during efforts <60 minutes.

Doing it as often as possible ensures you're both practiced, and that your gut is fully adapted for max absorption, but also ensures max training quality and physical training adaptations due to improved training quality and recovery.


Thanks for the reply! That makes sense but seems like a lot of extra calories. I'm used to being to do workouts under 2hrs with no fuel and then maybe 200-400cals for up to 3hrs that includes "real" work during the workout (not just zone 2). I'll try gradually uping my intake and see how things progress.

It is a lot more calories than most folks consume intra-training!

For related funny memes, see my instagram account in my signature. ;)

Hunger will drop the rest of the day, on average. Performance will improve. Most folks don't gain weight other than maybe 1-2 pounds of glycogen + water content up front when starting to fuel more aggressively.

Just make sure to eat a balanced meal immediately post training or risk rebound hypoglycemia.

Dr. Alex Harrison
______________________________________________________________________
YOUTUBE | LIFTING | RUNNING | NUTRITION | BOOK | NEWSLETTER
PhD Sport Physiology & Performance
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