Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position

Nov 13, 20 8:19

Post #1 of 28 (2103 views)

It's off season time, so now I'm brainstorming some options for my upcoming races.... if they do happen.

I was looking at Rotor's offering on cranks and chainrings. It looks like they have a good customizable system if I decide to use 1x for certain flat races and easily replace with 2x when needed.
Also considering the aero speedplay pedals.

First question - Is there a consensus on those aero pedals? I currently use assioma pedals so if I do a pedal switch then I would need a PM in the crank. Most likely a P2M option. Browsing old threads I could not find a great answer if they are actually worth doing the change. Doing this would probably be the most expensive option.

On the the chainset... For flat courses like IM MD, Eagleman I could definitely get away with a 54T ring and 1x setup and be able to maintain a straight chainline.
Expense wise, I wouldn't consider this to be a huge cost not needing to replace the PM.
For hillier courses, what would your opinion be of switching back to 2x setup vs using a larger cassette and smaller front ring. I have IM Tulsa on the calendar and probably 70.3 St George WC

For my fit, I'm on a Speedmax cl. Debating on dropping the base bar down and cutting the steerer tube, but that would be the last thing I do to the cockpit.
I've ordered several extensions and some brackets and will continue to experiment on how things feel up front.
How would I know without the wind tunnel if some of these position changes are better than what I am currently at?

Add all these things and coupled with latex tubes I hope to make a nice gain. I was weary about using latex as I tore 2 of them just trying to install. Now that I have a spare alloy wheelset to use outside racing I'm not worried about changing tubes often.

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Last edited by: Ryanppax: Nov 13, 20 8:21

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 8:30

Post #2 of 28 (2089 views)

Regarding your 1x chainring question, if you go that route, I would stay 1x rather than changing back to 2x for hillier courses (assuming you are ok with larger gaps between gears). I don’t mind that at all, I use 11-36 and 11-42 11 speed cassettes. I’ve used 54, 50, and 48 tooth chainrings with those cassettes.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [rtc9f] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 8:43

Post #3 of 28 (2072 views)

Are you able to get a new derailleur cage without replacing the whole RD? I have Ultegra di2

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 8:54

Post #4 of 28 (2056 views)

on the gearing i have been debating the same thing and decided to jump on the SRAM AXS train with the 10-36 with 48T chainring. Crazy expensive but much cheaper than buying a new bike.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [hueby416] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 9:30

Post #5 of 28 (2036 views)

I've always wondered if the less efficient chain line is better than the aero penalty of the FD

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 9:37

Post #6 of 28 (2026 views)

you can find the speedplay aero findings from Jim Manton on the ERO site. And, you can find the claims of a aero crank / chainring (by vision, specific to their metron setup) as an article that was on the main ST page in June? July? August?

Not coincidental to this reply, i have a vision crank setup for 1x for sale if you want to pm.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 10:14

Post #7 of 28 (1998 views)

If you’re considering changing pedals and cranks for aero advantages, Q factor and stack height should be a top consideration. Any reduction in overall area will likely outweigh the individual performance of the components themselves.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 10:15

Post #8 of 28 (1997 views)

Speedplay

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 10:49

Post #9 of 28 (1978 views)

Karl.n wrote:

If you’re considering changing pedals and cranks for aero advantages, Q factor and stack height should be a top consideration. Any reduction in overall area will likely outweigh the individual performance of the components themselves.

Are we talking stack height of the shoes or the cockpit?
My aero bars are on 20mm spacers so more room to go down there. Is more low always more aero?

Also in regards to the basebar. I could technically lower it by 30mm but would it accomplish anything if I do not need my extensions that low?

This is how I currently look on the bike.... it feels slick especially when tuck my head in a bit more.

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 11:06

Post #10 of 28 (1968 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

Karl.n wrote:

If you’re considering changing pedals and cranks for aero advantages, Q factor and stack height should be a top consideration. Any reduction in overall area will likely outweigh the individual performance of the components themselves.

Are we talking stack height of the shoes or the cockpit?
My aero bars are on 20mm spacers so more room to go down there. Is more low always more aero?

Also in regards to the basebar. I could technically lower it by 30mm but would it accomplish anything if I do not need my extensions that low?

This is how I currently look on the bike.... it feels slick especially when tuck my head in a bit more.

Shoes+pedals. Stack height on the bar is limited by your position, but technically your foot could go right on the pedal centerline for free. If you’ve got an extra 5mm on your shoes and pedals, it’s essentially 5mm given away on the bars.

Same with Q factor. If your shins are 10mm further apart, that’s a ton of extra air being pushed along.

All of this is limited by position requirements for comfort, but assuming you’ve got some room to adjust try to achieve the lowest narrowest drivetrain.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 11:15

Post #11 of 28 (1958 views)

Karl.n wrote:

Ryanppax wrote:

Karl.n wrote:

If you’re considering changing pedals and cranks for aero advantages, Q factor and stack height should be a top consideration. Any reduction in overall area will likely outweigh the individual performance of the components themselves.

Are we talking stack height of the shoes or the cockpit?
My aero bars are on 20mm spacers so more room to go down there. Is more low always more aero?

Also in regards to the basebar. I could technically lower it by 30mm but would it accomplish anything if I do not need my extensions that low?

This is how I currently look on the bike.... it feels slick especially when tuck my head in a bit more.

Shoes+pedals. Stack height on the bar is limited by your position, but technically your foot could go right on the pedal centerline for free. If you’ve got an extra 5mm on your shoes and pedals, it’s essentially 5mm given away on the bars.

Same with Q factor. If your shins are 10mm further apart, that’s a ton of extra air being pushed along.

All of this is limited by position requirements for comfort, but assuming you’ve got some room to adjust try to achieve the lowest narrowest drivetrain.

Understood. Thanks!

Looks like Assioma pedals have a stack of 10.5 and Speedplay Aero are 11.5/ 8.5 with 4 hole shoes

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 11:47

Post #12 of 28 (1932 views)

Position
Helmet
tires/tubes
Shaved legs/arms
Freshly Waxed chain and clean drivetrain
shoes (laces)
speedplay zero aero pedals
Bottle storage (BTA and BTS... avoid the frame if possible)

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 12:59

Post #13 of 28 (1885 views)

One would assume if I could go shorter cranks(currently 170) to 165 would help that stack as well?
EDIT: no that wouldn't work

Also looking at the Northwave shoe line. I assume using their 4bolt adapter achieves the low stack that is offered by the 4bolt speedplay cleats?

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Last edited by: Ryanppax: Nov 13, 20 14:03

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 13:44

Post #14 of 28 (1865 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

Are you able to get a new derailleur cage without replacing the whole RD? I have Ultegra di2

Yeah you’d need a different RD to handle the bigger cassettes.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 18:07

Post #15 of 28 (1810 views)

Yup, 4 bolt shoes + speedplay are generally considered the lowest stack. Dura Ace is also good.

I have this pet theory that longer cranks have some benefit to aero by lowering the whole rider relative to the bike (assuming handlebars drop as well). This seems obvious at the extreme, where 10 or 20mm cranks would raise the hips and rider an additional 150mm higher. In the end, though, any change in crank length is probably dominated by the effect on fit before any significant independent aero changes are incurred.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 20 18:41

Post #16 of 28 (1795 views)

They say a picture is worth 1000 words.

Notice how much of your crotch/stomach/waist area is visible. That big opening pretty much just serves a parachute that is creating drag. The easy fix is narrower elbows, raise hands and lower head. The lower head can be tricky, but I think a little more reach or pulling the seat back often helps.

Speedplays are pretty much a certain couple of watts and the narrower stance can be beneficial for many people. Your helmet choice is probably the single biggest area for a simple improvement. Those are decent road bike areo helmets, but they aren't great for a full-on Tri/TT lid. I have tested mine against an Aerohead and it is consistently 20-30 seconds slower on my 8 mile TT loop.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 20 4:59

Post #17 of 28 (1697 views)

grumpier.mike wrote:

Your helmet choice is probably the singl I have tested mine against an Aerohead and it is consistently 20-30 seconds slower on my 8 mile TT loop.

Interesting. I read on here a couple times that the Arrowhead only tested 60 seconds over an Ironman..... Though I did ask about marginal gains

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6592298#p6592298

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 20 5:22

Post #18 of 28 (1688 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

grumpier.mike wrote:

Your helmet choice is probably the singl I have tested mine against an Aerohead and it is consistently 20-30 seconds slower on my 8 mile TT loop.

Interesting. I read on here a couple times that the Arrowhead only tested 60 seconds over an Ironman..... Though I did ask about marginal gains

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6592298#p6592298

It's pretty rare when the Aerohead gets beat. Sure a lot of helmets will tie it in the wind tunnel...on 1 data point ( 0, -5, -7.5, -10 yaw).

90+% of the time when you look at which helmet is faster the aerohead is typically the winner. The helmet it seems to lose the most to is the Poc cerebel

Using my data the fastest helmet for me pre Aerohead was a Bell Javelin (and tbt I like that helmet better than the aerohead on my head, just feels better overall) yet the aero head was anywhere from 4-10w faster as the yaw angles increased. even at 4w saved that's < :60 over an IM.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 20 5:33

Post #19 of 28 (1677 views)

desert dude wrote:

Ryanppax wrote:

grumpier.mike wrote:

Your helmet choice is probably the singl I have tested mine against an Aerohead and it is consistently 20-30 seconds slower on my 8 mile TT loop.

Interesting. I read on here a couple times that the Arrowhead only tested 60 seconds over an Ironman..... Though I did ask about marginal gains

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6592298#p6592298

It's pretty rare when the Aerohead gets beat. Sure a lot of helmets will tie it in the wind tunnel...on 1 data point ( 0, -5, -7.5, -10 yaw).

90+% of the time when you look at which helmet is faster the aerohead is typically the winner. The helmet it seems to lose the most to is the Poc cerebel

Using my data the fastest helmet for me pre Aerohead was a Bell Javelin (and tbt I like that helmet better than the aerohead on my head, just feels better overall) yet the aero head was anywhere from 4-10w faster as the yaw angles increased. even at 4w saved that's < :60 over an IM.

At a range of low yaw for 27mph or so my Cerebel is no faster than my classic Giro Adv 2.

I just blew money to buy and test a Tempor.

Helmets are a big gain if you really buy and sell and test them to find it and also make sure your fit works with them versus against them.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 20 6:49

Post #20 of 28 (1645 views)

This is one pick at a moment in time.

But if you pedal with this toe down style, then I don’t think you will get much benefit if any from a pedal swap. Heel down and flat pedaling gets you the most benefit from aero pedal / cleats.

I would swap out those shoes. Big straps aren’t helping you. Flat laces.

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [SBRinSD] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 20 7:25

Post #21 of 28 (1624 views)

Any shoe recs? And why would I have laces in triathlon?

And you're right, I'm not usually that toe down.

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 20 7:27

Post #22 of 28 (1621 views)

The Rotor crank has a nice aero spider to mount the chainring. (70 euro) it's a 4x110 mount.

Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 20 7:41

Post #23 of 28 (1614 views)

Rubber laces

There is a TG post on how to remove the tongue from the shoe and use flat rubber laces - like these https://www.amazon.com/..._fabt1_gP.RFbJ2XYAT9[/url]

Choose kid size it works better.

Put as many or as few as you find comfortable.

Edit - here is the TG post https://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._SLX_Laces_P6008013/[/url]

Last edited by: SBRinSD: Nov 14, 20 7:45

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [SBRinSD] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 20 7:45

Post #24 of 28 (1607 views)

What's TG?

At my last race, I saw a guy with shoe covers and the only thing sticking out was the boa dial. Looked pretty slick. Can't remember the brand

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Help choosing marginal gains on the bike - 1x / Pedals / Aero Rings / position [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 20 7:46

Post #25 of 28 (1606 views)

Sorry you beat me to it. Look above edited post

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