Hard to tell without actually seeing it but, I'll try. Also, be aware that I know nothing about this TI that everyone here is always talking about.

You mentioned a shoulder injury stemming from the "catch" phase of the stroke. often these are caused by not getting a good body roll, which will work small rotator cuff muscles and lead to injury. A good body roll will emphasise the much larger muscle groups in your back, eg lats.

Here's one drill to try. Basically a normal freestyle stroke, but on releasing the hand from the water, touch the water surface on the opposite side of your body. This should be happening while you are in the "glide" on the other side. Then when you start the recovery, begin the catch of the other hand.

Breathing --- are you exhaling underwater? Common mistake among new swimmers is to exhale above the surface, which will then rush the inhale and presto, not enough air. Actually the urge to breathe is caused not by lack of O2, but by a buildup of CO2. Start exhaling as soon as your head is in the water, this will release CO2 and reduce that urge to breathe. Also, only turn your head enough to barely get a breath in. You should get some water in your mouth, not a lot, but some.

Hope that helps

J.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Ditto on the drill Jason was talking about. In case you need a different explanation of the drill, here is the one I used http://www.fsn.ch/masters/drills.htm - look for the butt head drill.

I've got a similar problem, and I'm swimming at a similar speed. I can do an IM length swim in 70-75 minutes at minimal effort with no wetsuit, yet to go even slightly faster really knocks me out. To alleviate the shoulder problems I've been doing the above drill. Also, I notice that I use my right arm to help me flip when doing flip turns. Concentrating on tuck and roll and not pinwheeling my right arm to help the flip really alleviated much of the shoulder pain.

Just thought of another one that can help with getting good body roll. Try the zipper drill. It's impossible to do if you don't roll on your side.

Not sure what you mean by "balance seems pretty poor" Are you talking about left / right, head/torso/legs, or something else?

Where are you starting to roll to the side? You should be rolling onto your left side starting as soon as your left hand enters the water (no more than an inch in front of your head), and your inhale will come while extending your left arm forward. Your inhale will be finished by the time your left arm is fully extended, and your head is back in the water.

Finally, sounds like you're starting to catch while still extending your arm (maybe???) A set of paddles might help here. Use small paddles with a single loop over your middle finger. No wrist loop. You should feel no pressure on the paddle when extending your arm, and if you start to catch too early, you won't be able to keep the paddles on your hands.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Thanks for the advice. After the messages this morning I hit the pool and did mostly drills. When I said my balance was poor I was refering to my trying to get my head up too high to breathe. I think doing a bunch of the various Total Immersion balance drills will cure that over the next few weeks.

I worked on what you said about body roll. Rotation is what everyone thinks they do, but no one does enough. Your suggested drill seemed way too wierd. Instead I worked on getting the recovery hand almost overhead, at least when I breathe. That seemed to help a lot. The zipper drill would work also and I will add that. My breathing problem is not that I don't exhale, but that I don't take a deep enough breath each time. The reason is probably at least partly due to not enough rotation.

My breathing timing is not at all as you describe. I breath when my arm is already fully extended. This is no doubt related to the glide. I breath during the glide. I know this is wrong. I want to get rid of the glide. I think if I do that, I will stop pushing down on the water with an extended arm and give my shoulder a shot at staying healthy. I am clueless as to why I breathe so late. Any ideas would be appreciated.

I am not really sure when I start to roll. Will think about that next time I am in the pool.

Flailing in Florida

Art,

One crutch that might get you away from that "bridging" with the hand on the extended arm would be to keep the hand perpendicular, rather than parallel, to the bottom of the pool while breathing and until you start the catch. This would make pushing yourself up ineffective, and, maybe allow you to break the habit. I'm describing it as a crutch to try to break the habit because I think it might lessen your catch and therefore not be a good long term fix.

Disclaimer: I'm not a strong swimmer.

Art,

Glad to hear that I am not the only one who has experienced stroke problems following TI. I, like you, was a self taught swimmer with the TI book on the edge of the pool. Anyway, I had the exact same problem, my extended guiding arm was essentially killing my glide because it was slightly bent before my catch and pull. I have great upper body stength and I felt like I had a good stoke but without the results. A local accomplished triathlete (IMH x4) solved it for me.

I think that we were/are over gliding. In trying to squeeze as few strokes as possible per lap the virtues of a moderate stoke cadence have been lost and the mechanics that follow. I have for the time being quite concentrating on low stroke count and gliding. Rather, I have integrated several drills until I have solved the arm drag problem and get more power/pull out of my catch and pull and then plan on integrating my already developed glide and rotation.

Here are the drills that I am doing:

One arm strokes focusing on arm length and the first 90deg. pull ( alternating sides)

Water polo stroke (head out of the water watching your hands enter the water)

Exteded arm sculling

50's pulling staight down as soon as your hand enters the water

(for lateral balance) stroke half as fast as your hardest kick

Email me if you want to discuss our shared problem any further.

Daniel

I've been sitting here trying to visualise my own stroke, and I have explained something incorrectly above. My apologies, and I hope I haven't done too much damage.

This is so much easier to demonstrate visually. Lets hope I get it right this time. I'll describe as if I breathe on my right.

What I do is, I start my roll onto my left side as soon as my fingers touch the water. I don't really turn my neck much, just use the roll to clear my mouth from the water surface and breathe into the trough formed by the wake from my head and nose. My inhale will start when my left arm is about 1/2 - 2/3 extended. I don't pause at the top of the stroke, the left arm catch starts immediately on reaching full extension. I will then visually follow my right hand as it recovers. I don't start to roll back to the neutral position until I can see my right hand next to my face. at this point my left hand will have finished the catch and will be just starting the pull. I then just kind of follow my right hand back into the water, again, not really turning my neck.

Ok, you are starting to breathe when already at full extension? Or is it closer to the above.

The butt head drill is good for getting a body roll, the timing is like doing a catch-up drill. ie a long pause at the top. And, yes, it will feel wierd, as it overemphasises everything, especially body roll. It may not be a good drill to get rid of an excessive glide though. A better one is probably a one-armed drill, letting your free hand dangle at your side. Think about the body roll when you do it, and concentrate on eliminating the glide on the front of the stroke. Also, try a kicking drill (1 stroke, 12 kicks on left side, 1 stroke, 12 kicks on right side). That will rotate you through 180 degrees on each stroke.

Oh this is so hard to explain without being able to demonstrate. And even harder to diagnose without being able to see. Signing up with a masters program (if you havent done so already) would probably help a lot.

J.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

What I do is start to inhale just as my arm reaches full extension. I glide here while I inhale. Not surprisingly, if I try to get rid of the glide, I have an even harder time breathing.

It may well be that I am rotating too late or too slowly. I really don't know. After I breathe, I start to pull and start to rotate to the other side. I don't finish rotating until my arm is fully extended.

I really don't have a clue how to fix this.

I have done a master's program in the past and it does help, but I typically wind up doing too much yardage and too little stroke improvement.

AJ,

some of Jason's drills are very good and I would highly recommend also the one where you cross over and touch the water on the opposite side. The reason for this is that what you visualize yourself as doing and what you are actually doing are often two completely different things. In order to get on the right track you have to "feel" like you are doing something very exaggerated and that drill will feel like that but in fact it is great for making sure that you are in fact swimming on your side and not like a barge going straight through the water.

Another thing, do you ever get wetsuit rash on the back of your neck? Often times this is actually caused because we turn our head too much to the side to breath instead of turn our whole body. The head, shoulders and torso should turn all as one, not independently of one another and this roll should initiate with the hips.

Another good drill that I like to do involves an old spare bike tube. Cut about a foot out of the tube (shorten it) and then tie it together. Loop it into a double figure eight and then put one foot through each loop. This should keep your feet "tied" together without being too uncomfortable. Then swim a 25 at a time with your feet tied like this. If you saw the 2002 Hawaii Ironman broadcast and saw the underwater shot of Marc Herriman swimming and the way that his legs were dragging down behind him, this is how you will probably be swimming with your feet tied together. In order to get your feet and legs back up to the surface you really have to exaggerate the amount that you push your shoulders (pushing the T) down in the water. This won't neceassrily help with your breathing or your body roll but is a great technique for improving your balance and body position in the water.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

I don't know if you have seen my post from a previous thread but here it is anyways:

"Some good drills are:

1. Long-axis Sweet Spot:
Kick on your side with your bottom arm out, face in the water, and top arm down at your side. You should stay staight and stretch out. Over time, you'll develope a sweet spot where it seems your slicing through the water. Do it on both sides alternating every 25 or 50. This will help you find a good body line in the water. Breathing is done by just rotating your head sideways, but your body shouldn't move at all!

2. Sharkfin:
While kicking in the same position as Long-axis Sweet Spot, bring you top arm(or recovery arm) up keeping your hand about 8 inches away from your side but also having the tips of your fingers draggin the top of the water. You elbow should basically be at about a 90 degree bend. Stop once your hand reaches your armpit, then place it back down at ur side(don't place your hand in the water and pull). Remember: Don't loose your sweet spot which you found in the previous drill, keep your arm reaching far out, your head looking down, and kick.

3. Catch-up:
Start in your sweet spot position, then bring your top arm up just like in Sharkfin but continue moving your hand to a full recovery. The 'catch' is that you keep your bottom arm out until your hand touches it. Then, you begin a pull and rotate onto your other sweet spot. Always have a steady kick and keep your body inline.

For pulling:
4. Doggie-paddle:
Use a pull-bouy for this. It's basically what it sounds like but keep your head up or head down, don't kick, and do a semi-catch up under water. Make sure you finish your stroke by hitting your hips with your hands. Work on rotating your body and reaching out as far as you can. Tip: Don't move your extended arm until your recovering arm underwater is about a foot to 6 inches away from full extension.

5. Tarzan:
Pull bouy again. Don't kick. Your chin is on the surface the entire time looking staight ahead and as still as possible. Basically, you just swim with your head up. Though focus on body rotation and hand entry. Your hands shouldn't be layed into the water. You should slide them iin about a foot from your other hands finger tips. Purpose of your head being up is so you can watch your hands god in and make sure they're not doin' funky things.

Oh yeah, also good advice for those drills

Long axis Sweet Spot: Keep your palms down, which goes for everything else too.

Pulling: You know you have an efficient pull when you look at your arms pulling underneath you and you don't see any bubbles being carried along by them.

Also, very important. Practice bi-lateral breathing. (breathing to both sides) this helps you keep a balanced stroke which means you go straight. Also, it saves more energy versus breathing every on just one side. Ex. patterns: every 3, 2-3-2 or every 5. But no one really does every 5. But it's good for practice. =) "



From what I read in your first post about that breathing, try kicking more. If you have to raise out of the water to breathe, it means your most likely not riding high in the water. The higher you ride in the water is a key factor to how fast you go. To me, it seems like your most likely dragging your feet letting your lower body sink which isn't good. =)

Lots of guys I see get this wrong a lot too: When breathing, only half of your face should be out of the water. So basically, the water line goes right between your eyes. This will stop any neck pains your getting and help not twist your body allignment.

Tool tip: Use fins and a pull bouy frequently during drills and swimming. They help you focus on many parts of your stroke.

Breathing tip: If you have decent lungs, swimming shouldn't be a major breathing problem unless the chlorine levels are sky high. This may seem silly to others but many people have done it in the past. Make sure you exhale all the way. Some swimmers out there are so worried about inhaling, that they forget to exhale. Breath in through the mouth, exhale through the nose. Relax the mind, and enjoy the water. =D

A lot of these are the Total Immersion drills. I thought I did these pretty well, but I clearly need a refresher.

I haven't had a problem with neck chaffing in a wetsuit for about three years now. I did have this at first.

The pint about kicking is very interesting. I have a terrible kick. I will get a lot faster if I had a better kick, but one thing at a time.

I think I will save the innertube around the feet for my backyard pool. I look like enough of a dork as it is. I can't go fast, so I at least want to look good.

Yeah, I never have seen TI or something like that before so I don't know what they do in there.

Sorry if this goes agaisnt anyone out there about the kicking:

I disagree with letting your feet rest behind you. Yes, it does save some energy for your legs, but it puts ALL of the effort into one section of your body. Letting your feet drag gets that sinking end, for most swimmers at least. It results in poor body position which results in slower time with a heavy work load on your arms, chest, stomach and back. this is my point of view, but in triathlon terms, I think it would be a lot easier kicking to keep your body high in the water resulting in less resisitance and drag, not to mention a faster time from those factors. If you think about it, yeah, your legs might be just a little shooken up from the swim, but your lungs and stomach which is used a lot in the next two events are supplied with much more energy.

I don't, I'm rambling on now. Just my opinion. I haven't done an Ironman to say thats the best way but in my long swimming background, to me it seems more efficient.